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Teachers Teaching Teachers #46 - Joomala? DrupalEd? Edublogs? Wordpress? Elgg?

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  • Length: 71:31 minutes (32.74 MB)
  • Format: MP3 Mono 44kHz 64Kbps (CBR)

March 28, 2007 - This week, we invited several National Writing Project (NWP) technology liaisons to join us to talk about how they manage Content Management Systems (CMS’s) for their local sites, schools, and classrooms.We discussed the possibilities of using the DrupalEd profile that Bill Fitzgerald has recently been piloting, and is threatening to release within weeks. Our conclusion was less than clear but it will make for a good show next week! See you then.

Chat Log Below

 20:40:25 laganrat ->  Okay. My problem last week was a firewall setting. Everything is fine now.
 20:40:52 jeff ->  excellent
 20:40:58 jeff ->  what did you have problems with last week?
 20:42:56 laganrat ->  I couldn't connect to the stream. The wek before I installed a new motherboard, power supply and memory; then I had to reinstall Windows and all the rest because the motherboard was an upgrade and the old image of Windows on the hard drive didn't like what it was seeing.
 20:43:39 laganrat ->  ..So the firewall settings had changed to default.. they weren't allowing media player to access the internet..
 20:43:44 jeff ->  wow, long journey.  You're getting music on the stream now?
 20:43:54 laganrat ->  Yes I am.
 20:44:04 laganrat ->  Who is that guy?
 20:44:08 jeff ->  We also have a skypecast and teleconference going tonight
 20:44:34 laganrat ->  I noticed that. Would I be better off loggin on to Skype?
 20:44:54 jeff ->  The guy singing 'alright ' was Adam Carroll - tunes from SxSW
 20:45:02 jeff ->  3GB of podsafe music
 20:45:04 jeff ->  up to you
 20:45:12 laganrat ->  Okay. I never heard of him beofre...
 20:45:23 jeff ->  if you might want to chime in skypecast would be good
 20:45:26 jeff ->  also, no delay
 20:45:50 laganrat ->  Okay. I'll do that. First, I need to go tuck in Thomas. See you soon.
 20:45:55 jeff ->  all system go Paul. Skype 'worldbridges' when ready
 20:46:04 jeff ->  good night to Thomas :)
 20:47:23 PaulAllison ->  thanks
 20:49:01 jeff ->  http://www.yugma.com/app/loading.php?user=&role=0&collsession=108733719
 20:55:22 jeff ->  Session ID: 108733719
 20:57:38 PaulAllison ->  Hi.
 20:58:09 DBragg ->  Hi Paul
 20:58:16 Lee ->  Hi Doug
 20:58:27 Doug ->  hey Lee, and all
 20:59:35 PaulAllison ->  kevinh11
 21:00:40 Doug ->  5x5
 21:00:45 Doug ->  very good on sound
 21:01:02 jeff ->  thanks
 21:01:33 Doug ->  go Bill
 21:01:36 Doug ->  go Bill
 21:01:38 laganrat ->  Sounds fine
 21:04:19 cheryloakes ->  hey cathy good to see you
 21:04:49 laganrat ->  When I look on the skype menu, I see no listing under live public conversations for this conference...
 21:06:47 Doug ->  click the link on this page
 21:07:15 Doug ->  at the top
 21:07:21 Doug ->  for skypecast
 21:07:24 Doug ->  hey dave
 21:07:25 cheryloakes ->  yeah Jeff,
 21:07:28 dave ->  what's a skypecast?
 21:08:20 cheryloakes ->  doug you must be home and not traveling
 21:08:31 Doug ->  that's right Cheryl
 21:08:38 dave ->  bill is the dude.
 21:08:45 DBragg ->  Congrats, Troy!
 21:09:03 Doug ->  DrupalEd is rockin'
 21:09:03 billf ->  I'm watching you, kor-mee-ay :)
 21:09:15 Doug ->  lol
 21:09:27 hickstro ->  Thanks, Donna!
 21:10:06 cheryloakes ->  You go Lee, that is just amazing all that has happened with your project since September.
 21:10:12 Doug ->  sorry Paul, was double-muted
 21:10:22 Doug ->  my audio's been sketchy lately
 21:10:34 hickstro ->  Will is at East Carolina University and the Tar River Writing Project
 21:12:16 Lee ->  Thank you Cheryl!
 21:12:44 cheryloakes ->  you are welcome. I may get teachers moving towards that next year. They are draggin
 21:12:53 Lee ->  It is such fun to dive in ..things seem to build their own steam, eh?
 21:13:29 jeff ->  is there a url for past nwp sites?
 21:13:54 cheryloakes ->  yes, I've been working this year to get things on an even keel and getting people in charge of their destiny with technology. Before the tech people did everything and enabled teachers. They are working on getting more ownership, and doing well.
 21:14:36 CathyE ->  I agree Cheryl-
 21:15:21 hickstro ->  Jeff - by past sites, what do you mean?
 21:15:48 jeff ->  the manila site that was being discussed or other sites that were part of summer institutes
 21:16:09 cheryloakes ->  catch ya later
 21:17:06 Lee ->  http://teachersteachingteachers.org/.org
 21:17:34 PaulAllison ->  Hi eric
 21:17:44 EricHoefler ->  hello ... sorry i'm a bit late tonight
 21:17:56 hickstro ->  Here is a sample of a manila site: http://blogs.writingproject.org/nwpHelp/
 21:17:58 CathyE ->  Are ya'll in Yugma?
 21:18:11 jeff ->  some are
 21:18:21 guest478 ->  what's a yugma?
 21:19:09 Lee ->  Hello bob
 21:19:16 elderbob ->  Hi lee.
 21:19:35 hickstro ->  Right - the teachers need to have a robust site to work with, but not be overwhelmed with learning the ins and outs of it.
 21:20:01 hickstro ->  Or, be restricted in their ability to use things that are installed by others...
 21:20:15 jeff ->  how is stream audio?
 21:20:27 guest478 ->  i'm listening on it
 21:20:29 CathyE ->  But the tech savy person has to understand what the classroom teacher can do with drupal
 21:20:33 hickstro ->  ... for instance, we all like Edublogs, but teachers still don't have tons of control over their blogs in terms of altering CSS and adding users.
 21:20:34 guest478 ->  it's fine
 21:21:29 hickstro ->  Right -- and having that kind of immediate support is what is so important to teachers.
 21:21:54 hickstro ->  When they call their own IT people, the focus is mostly on the hardware or the interface, not the pedagogy.
 21:22:03 Jen Cox ->  So let me see if I have this straight, Drupal and Elgg etc are blogging platforms that you can install on your own server to have more control?  Or do I have this entirely wrong?
 21:22:21 billf ->  @Jen -- you have that right
 21:22:36 hickstro ->  They need to be able to ask someone who knows how this software works and can help them thinking pedagogically about it.
 21:22:39 jeff ->  has anyone twittered about this show?
 21:22:41 Jen Cox ->  Thanks Bill!
 21:23:56 EricHoefler ->  Paul ... I was talking, but you weren't hearing me ... I restarted Skype ... maybe it will work now?
 21:24:29 hickstro ->  Right -- keeping up with development...
 21:25:01 hickstro ->  ... that's where having a good hosting service with the ability to do easy updates (like through Fantastico) is critical if we want teachers to really be in control of their own websites.
 21:25:34 billf ->  fantastico opens up potential security issues
 21:26:02 hickstro ->  Bill - what kind of security issues?
 21:26:08 billf ->  the value of a fantastico install is directly related to the currency of the code
 21:26:43 billf ->  an out of date version of the software (ie, one that is susceptible to cross-site scripting) can be dangerous
 21:27:23 jeff ->  Lee, I suggest skypecast
 21:27:27 hickstro ->  Right -- so doesn't fantastico allow for easy installs of new versions of software?
 21:27:34 jeff ->  will keep you muted
 21:27:41 billf ->  you are dependent on the ISP to update
 21:27:41 jeff ->  ping me anytime you want to speak
 21:28:12 hickstro ->  Good point. Don't most of them stay current on the new releases?
 21:28:20 jeff ->  Doug, can you lower your volume?
 21:28:24 hickstro ->  I guess that I assumed they would.
 21:28:34 CathyE ->  I'm wanting to get drupalized
 21:29:27 Lee ->  yep.. good idea
 21:29:45 Lee ->  these darn country lines~
 21:31:35 hickstro ->  Here is the institute that Paul is talking about, Tech Matters: http://www.writingproject.org/cs/nwpp/print/nwp_e/176
 21:31:55 billf ->  @Brad -- some ISP's do, some don't
 21:31:55 WillBanks ->  hi everyone ... i finally got to the hotel in DC and got internet ...
 21:31:58 hickstro ->  No, I just got "promoted"... :)
 21:32:12 hickstro ->  ... I am a co-director and we now have two new co-TLs.
 21:32:40 CathyE ->  Hello Will!  Did I hear you are from ECU?
 21:32:48 WillBanks ->  yep
 21:33:35 CathyE ->  My old stomping ground :)
 21:34:25 PaulAllison ->  will are you on skype?
 21:34:33 PaulAllison ->  What's your skype id?
 21:34:48 DBragg ->  Troy, that is exactly what the Lehigh Valley WP is struggling with
 21:34:57 WillBanks ->  I'm not on skype ... oops
 21:34:58 WillBanks ->  holdon
 21:35:36 Doug ->  see conference info at top of this page for Skype and phone connection
 21:36:11 Bud ->  howdy, room
 21:36:27 jeff ->  Hey Bud
 21:36:36 Doug ->  salut Bud
 21:36:45 Bud ->  greetings, y'all
 21:36:53 Lee ->  Hi Bud
 21:37:21 hickstro ->  Donna - I understand. What are some of the goals that you have in creating your site?
 21:37:34 Bud ->  the "what's next" is a writing project or educationbridges question
 21:37:44 Bud ->  I think sustainability is doable
 21:38:01 jeff ->  I almost heard you Lee
 21:38:02 DBragg ->  we want to be connecting and our listserv isn't working well
 21:38:10 Doug ->  http://www.wier.ca/ have been doing "neat" stuff on the social/support side
 21:39:09 DBragg ->  we have a static website, but that is getting overwhelming for one person (me!), we want to keep fellows/TC involved
 21:39:10 WillBanks ->  slow download of skype ... i may not make it on after all at this rate ...
 21:39:22 hickstro ->  In what ways are you hoping that people will connect? Reading Groups? Writing Response Groups? General Interests?
 21:40:12 Bud ->  Lee --> as much as I like screencasts -- will they really solve all usability issues?
 21:40:21 Lee ->  may we see a joomla on yugma? does anyone have one they can run us through
 21:41:00 jeff ->  any joomla education site URL's toshare?
 21:41:07 elderbob ->  Lee, my Elderville is on Joomla.
 21:41:16 CathyE ->  I think Lee is right- if you want to know, and there is a screencast available it is "learning on demand"
 21:41:20 hickstro ->  Donna - so, part of it is content management for site leaders, right? What other concerns do you have?
 21:41:22 DBragg ->  We have regular retreats, a monthly teacher as writer group, new teacher, family literacy, ELL work and expensive youth programs so we want everyone to know what is happening so you can join in
 21:42:19 DBragg ->  certainly for our leadership team, we need to be in more regular contact than our monthly meeting is providing
 21:42:21 PaulAllison ->  http://nvwp.org
 21:42:40 billf ->  re screencasts -- they are good, but more valuable in connection with personal interactions (IMO)
 21:43:03 elderbob ->  I am going to have to leave now...Ill try to listen to the archive later.
 21:43:06 Bud ->  i agree with Bill
 21:43:07 elderbob ->  Bye all.
 21:43:09 Doug ->  synchronous meetings like this, are a key, I think
 21:43:19 Doug ->  bye EBob
 21:43:32 Doug ->  when bldg online communities
 21:43:41 Bud ->  i agree with doug, too.
 21:43:43 Lee ->  Bud..I do not thing it will necessarily make the space totally intuitive but it can be the "library" of FAQ's with easy how to's . They seem to solve most basic problems of how to with all levels of learners in a variety of technological messes!
 21:44:22 Bud ->  my experience is that the folks who need the help can't swing managing the screencasts -- unless someone showed them how to first
 21:44:25 Bud ->  hi, christina
 21:44:29 ccantrill ->  hello!
 21:44:35 Lee ->  as long as there are good screencasts that is.. those must be in place and very thorough and simple
 21:44:45 ccantrill ->  very unstable connection where I am ... sorry to be late.
 21:44:58 Doug ->  Bud, now we have Yugma--aka "screencast helper"
 21:45:00 CathyE ->  Yes, some of us don't "get it" the first time- so having to option to go over and over is a positive
 21:45:00 Doug ->  :)
 21:45:01 EricHoefler ->  my classroom site address is: http://www.wshsbeyond.com
 21:45:02 Lee ->  yep.. there is truth to that point Bud
 21:45:20 ccantrill ->  can someone send me the skype address? Thanks!
 21:45:22 billf ->  My experience dovetails with Bud's -- there are some people who do better with face to face/personal interactions
 21:45:29 Doug ->  at the top o' this page
 21:45:34 WillBanks ->  hey chris!
 21:45:38 Doug ->  for contact infor
 21:45:39 ccantrill ->  hey Will!
 21:45:56 ccantrill ->  I see it ... thanks Doug.
 21:46:02 Doug ->  welcome
 21:46:47 Bud ->  I want you to finish that question, Paul -- What's the Joomla development/support community like?
 21:47:15 billf ->  A few of the core developers were at the OSCMS summit last week --
 21:47:20 billf ->  of Joomla
 21:47:46 billf ->  RE the split -- more of the core devs stuck with Joomla
 21:48:09 Lee ->  yes. face to face is always the best or one to one in any form
 21:48:38 jeff ->  anybody in the Yugma want the desktop?
 21:49:31 Bud ->  am I the only person having issues with the stream?
 21:50:05 Doug ->  no me too re stream
 21:50:11 Doug ->  there it is
 21:50:17 jeff ->  check again
 21:50:26 Doug ->  cutting in and out
 21:50:36 jeff ->  ping me anytime it goes down
 21:50:37 jeff ->  thanks for the heads up
 21:50:39 Doug ->  rebuffering again
 21:50:43 CathyE ->  me too- with the stream
 21:51:42 cathysfiddle ->  not much stream here
 21:51:44 Lee ->  thanks for goingn to a joomla jeff
 21:51:55 DBragg ->  same here
 21:51:56 Lee ->  no here either cathy..just the night i think
 21:51:59 Durff ->  I thought the audoe cutting out was just me....
 21:51:59 hickstro ->  Will makes a good point -- this is a fundamental shift in thinking. People have to see the site as a community space, not just a place for information.
 21:52:18 Doug ->  me too Lisa
 21:52:22 Bud ->  can't hear -- but I agree with Troy's summation of Will's point
 21:52:24 Doug ->  skipping again now
 21:52:33 Doug ->  was back for a bit, but off again for me
 21:52:40 Bud ->  I've working my way through the list of NWP sites right now
 21:52:57 Durff ->  yup, me too Doug
 21:52:59 Bud ->  and the ones that look healthy are the ones that have figured out a reason to get people there -- and get them to stay
 21:53:06 Lee ->  www.elderbob.com/elderville
 21:53:11 jeff ->  experiencing stream instability - suggest skypecast
 21:54:00 jeff ->  doug or lee, want to try grabbing ETT A?
 21:54:07 Doug ->  swill do
 21:54:39 Lee ->  doug.. i can if yours doesnt work
 21:54:41 Lee ->  let me know
 21:55:23 jeff ->  EdTechTalk B is streaming for now
 21:57:31 jeff ->  Streams should be OK - stopped shairng desktop in Yugma - seemed to help a lot
 21:57:31 Bud ->  don't go with elgg for tech matters, paul
 21:57:40 Bud ->  it's not flexible enough, as much as I love it, too
 21:57:44 jeff ->  if anyone in skypecast wants to chime in, please let me know
 21:57:45 Lee ->  yes.. it is
 22:02:23 hickstro ->  Great point -- this online identity crisis, I think, is really confusing for all of us.
 22:02:37 WillBanks ->  indeed
 22:02:49 Durff ->  online identity...
 22:02:57 Bud ->  just one identity?
 22:03:02 Bud ->  or perhaps 15?
 22:03:07 Durff ->  a student of mine thinks we should have online id numbers
 22:03:23 Durff ->  that are tied somehow to SS #s
 22:03:26 Bud ->  that's very, very worrysome
 22:04:05 Durff ->  so people cannot change identity's and avoid the law or responsibility
 22:04:29 Bud ->  and can never have any privacy?
 22:04:35 Durff ->  yup
 22:04:40 Bud ->  no thanks.
 22:04:45 Bud ->  but an interesting solution
 22:04:56 Durff ->  we should be trans[arent
 22:04:59 Lee ->  but one needs a much more interlaced rss set up to create an easy to "zoom in or zoom out" to see what each student is doing .. able to go as in depth as one would like for assessment or as little as is necessary to sense the participatory level of the student
 22:05:04 Durff ->  transparent
 22:05:32 Bud ->  100%, no.
 22:05:40 Bud ->  80-90% sure
 22:05:50 Durff ->  what are you hiding, Bud?
 22:05:53 Bud ->  and I want that to be MY choice -- not the government's
 22:05:56 Durff ->  overeating?
 22:06:05 Bud ->  ?
 22:06:16 Durff ->  relaxing in tropical climates?
 22:06:32 hickstro ->  Creating a community space for TLs beyond the list serv, in a way.
 22:06:48 Bud ->  troy -- I hope that's what you're going to do
 22:06:50 Durff ->  ah...yea I agree with keep the government out
 22:07:00 Bud ->  there was tech matters strewn all over the Interwebs last year
 22:07:10 billf ->  OpenID really solves a lot of the identity issues
 22:07:22 Lee ->  yes Bill !
 22:07:29 billf ->  it has personas, and users control who they share with what
 22:07:37 Bud ->  I think tech matters folks should use a bunch of tools -- but aggregate in one place
 22:07:42 Durff ->  like criminal background checks
 22:07:46 Doug ->  I think the dialog about responsibility along the way is an important aspect
 22:07:50 Bud ->  and that's why I love the idea of picking one CMS
 22:07:50 Lee ->  Thats my view as well bud
 22:07:50 Durff ->  or fingerprinting
 22:07:52 EricHoefler ->  bill ... it does and it doesn't ... i still have a number of "communities/networks" to login to (even if it's with the same ID)
 22:08:25 EricHoefler ->  and have to "keep track of' what's happening in each of those communities
 22:08:37 Durff ->  isn't there software that will log in to everything for you?
 22:08:40 Lee ->  not good Eric.. I agree
 22:08:52 hickstro ->  Bud - yes, I would say that is one of the goals that Paul is thinking about, for sure.
 22:09:02 Lee ->  One forgets
 22:09:15 WillBanks ->  roboform will hold your login information for multiple sites and enter it automatically when you come to the site
 22:09:23 Lee ->  sorry..that went up accidently
 22:09:40 Durff ->  cute lee, real cute
 22:09:48 jeff ->  so the decision is......  EVERYTHING!   I like it.
 22:09:55 Bud ->  clear decision, huh?
 22:09:59 Lee ->  :)
 22:10:00 Doug ->  funny
 22:10:04 Lee ->  Me too Jeff
 22:10:05 Bud ->  do we need an administrator?
 22:10:07 Lee ->  Bring it on
 22:10:11 jeff ->  they're all winners really
 22:10:12 Bud ->  not laughing
 22:10:15 Bud ->  I'm in the same place
 22:10:30 jeff ->  welcome to web2.0
 22:10:31 Bud ->  I say pick one and try it.
 22:10:38 Bud ->  if it doesn't work out, quit
 22:10:41 Lee ->  naw..thats too easy
 22:10:47 jeff ->  tolerance of crazy required
 22:10:51 Lee ->  and labor intensive
 22:10:57 Durff ->  never quit
 22:11:05 Bud ->  can a crazy person be self-tolerant
 22:11:07 Bud ->  ?
 22:11:08 Lee ->  snippets...loosly joined
 22:11:19 Bud ->  What if y'all had a little competition?
 22:11:22 WillBanks ->  seems to me that labor-intesive is a pre-req of open source technologies
 22:11:27 Bud ->  a joomla team and a drupaled team?
 22:11:29 Durff ->  you are all very tolerant of this crazy @@@@@@@
 22:11:30 WillBanks ->  which makes it tough for nontechies
 22:11:39 Doug ->  love the tip to "constructivist" approach
 22:12:25 Lee ->  ahhh but its a matter of defining labor.. if we are having fun with it..it is not so labor intensive..it only seems like wasted labor when it does not work out and we need to switch
 22:12:57 Lee ->  so yes Will your right ..
 22:13:12 WillBanks ->  i have tons of fun with drupal, but after four hours, i've accomplished one new thing and i'm thining, "wow, i didn't get those letters of rec written" ...
 22:13:15 WillBanks ->  but god it was more fun
 22:13:15 Bud ->  it's not necessarily wasted labor for the builders -- but it's time and energy lost on the folks who are involved but not designing -- they just want to know where the site went and why it isn't there
 22:13:36 Bud ->  Bill's drupal flavor is really solving some of the configuration problems/questions
 22:13:39 Lee ->  hehe too true
 22:13:53 WillBanks ->  bud, very much ... bill's drupal flavor is excellent
 22:13:56 Lee ->  PAUL.. I will need to head out soon..are you still watching the chat?
 22:14:11 Doug ->  true Bud
 22:14:20 Lee ->  Perhaps we can pick up on this next week?
 22:14:22 Doug ->  join my course next time you're in there
 22:14:22 PaulAllison ->  okay... I'll end
 22:14:30 Doug ->  Lisa joined today
 22:14:42 hickstro ->  I think that you have a good bet here...
 22:14:48 Bud ->  I really like the fact that bill's available, too, and I'm hoping folks can take full responsible advantage of him and teach themselves drupal code
 22:14:50 Lee ->  This is really hitting the nail on the head ...for some of us who contemplate this issue currently in our own work
 22:14:51 Bud ->  will do, doug
 22:15:05 CathyE ->  No pressure Bill- but I want to set up my drupaled over spring vacation ;)
 22:15:39 DBragg ->  night all
 22:15:55 CathyE ->  Easter WEek
 22:16:13 billf ->  @ Cathy -- I'll shoot for that :)
 22:16:32 Bud ->  jeff -- how out of the box is edtechtalk's drupal theme?
 22:16:48 CathyE ->  OK- I'll be ready
 22:16:53 jeff ->  we've added a few modules, but nothing too sophisticated
 22:16:53 Lee ->  quite a bit bud
 22:17:07 Bud ->  to the theme or to the basic install?
 22:17:16 Bud ->  I'm interested in the look.
 22:17:26 hickstro ->  We can make it work, for sure!
 22:17:34 jeff ->  theme is not modified.  We are using about 5 contrib modules
 22:17:44 jeff ->  not much under the hood work
 22:17:48 Bud ->  thanks, jeff
 22:18:10 Bud ->  my biggest disappointment with Drupal is that it's, well, visually unappealing. 
 22:18:18 Bud ->  MY dad would say it's ugly
 22:18:24 CathyE ->  Will- I'm on the Outer Banks- you can come visit over spring vacation
 22:18:29 Bud ->  but your drupal and others look good -- so it can be done
 22:18:43 hickstro ->  Right, Will - time to go open source, Paul!
 22:18:45 WillBanks ->  cathy ... you'r ein NC?
 22:18:47 jeff ->  I like the functionality of this theme (pleroma) - am not crazy about the colors
 22:18:57 Doug ->  Bill check out the client page at lullabot for some "non-Drupal" looks
 22:19:00 CathyE ->  yep- Nags Head
 22:19:04 WillBanks ->  CATHY are you part of a Writing Project in NC?? If not, come join mine!
 22:19:05 Doug ->  sorry sb Bud
 22:19:11 Bud ->  open source, open source, open source (imagine a slow clap)
 22:19:21 Bud ->  Will -- you started the WP at ECU, right?
 22:19:26 WillBanks ->  yep
 22:19:32 WillBanks ->  Go Pirates!
 22:19:39 Bud ->  my father's an alum
 22:19:42 Bud ->  beautiful place
 22:19:45 WillBanks ->  awesome, bud
 22:19:48 WillBanks ->  it can be beautiful
 22:19:51 WillBanks ->  ... :-)
 22:19:58 WillBanks ->  LOL
 22:20:14 hickstro ->  clap, clap, clap...
 22:20:19 CathyE ->  I have purple bood too.
 22:20:23 CathyE ->  blood
 22:20:32 Lee ->  clap clap ..
 22:20:32 WillBanks ->  cathy, email me and let's stay in touch: banksw@ecu.edu
 22:20:35 Lee ->  thanks all
 22:20:54 Bud ->  you do need cathy in your project
 22:21:16 Bud ->  paul -- thanks for moving this conversation forward
 22:22:27 Bud ->  night, everybody
 22:22:39 Doug ->  thanks all