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TTT#285 Who drops out? with Nick Perez, Todd Finley, Alex Pappas, Troy Hicks, Lisa Nielsen, Teresa Bunner, Lisa Nielsen 2.22.12

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  • Length: 59:59 minutes (13.73 MB)
  • Format: MP3 Stereo 44kHz 32Kbps (CBR)

On this episode of Teachers Teaching Teachers +Paul Allison +Monika Hardy, and +Chris Sloan welcome many different perspectives on the important question of Who drops out? Why? Does it matter? What alternatives are available?

teachers285

With a wonderful mix of thoughtful people we explore how questions about “engagement”—even what it means—help us have productive dialogues about what good teaching and learning looks like and what might change in our schools. Each of us in this conversation are working to reconsider our assumptions and to recast our questions about student engagement in high school and beyond. Please add to this mix by listening in and adding to the comments below.

Nick found our conversation and had this poignant, detailed response, which I can’t figure out how to excerpt, so here it is in full. Nick wrote to us:

I don’t think high-school is for everyone - just like college isn’t for everyone. This might not be a popular opinion, but I’d love to see more of a focus on alternative forms of education for dropouts, and less of a focus on forcing them to stay in schools where they don’t feel productive. A little background on how I formed that opinion:
I’m a high-school dropout. I wrote my first program when I was ~10 years old, and spent my time coding instead of doing schoolwork. Everyone knew that I was educating myself, but I was still treated like a troublemaker because of my grades. After being placed in a horrible, kind of humiliating special-ed program in middle school (I had someone following me around all day, making sure I was paying attention), I started skipping school because I felt alienated. I’ve never been allowed in a regular high-school classroom (I was in a small program for troubled kids, where it wasn’t unusual for a student to be out for weeks/months due to jail-time), which made me feel further alienated, and motivated me to skip class more often.
So eventually I left. I think there should be more of a focus on our unique needs, and more of an understanding of the fact that “unique needs” doesn’t necessarily equate to learning disabilities or behavioral problems - some of us prefer to work without a standardized curriculum, some of us prefer to work alone, some prefer to work in groups, some want complete guidance, and some just want independent study with extra help on-call.. and yeah, some are stubborn enough to reject any form of education that doesn’t meet their needs/desires/expectations, like myself.
I don’t regret a thing. I love self-educating, because I love freedom and self-accountability. If I fail to learn the things I need to learn, it’s an issue that I deal with on my own, instead of facing disciplinary action, or getting an “F”, or being placed in a box of “bad kids”. I have a job. I pay taxes. I’ve never had issues paying my rent. I’m still self-educating at every opportunity and always will be. Life goes on. I’d love to help other dropouts feel like they haven’t missed their chance.

Click Read more to see a copy of the chat that was happening during the webcast.

09:39 admin: Checking in to see if chat is working 
09:39 admin: Chat things OK Paul? 
09:39 Paul Allison: Getting ready for tonight's TTT 
09:39 Paul Allison: seems to be thanks. 
09:46 guest-2601: I'll hang out here since it's sounds like the hangout will be pretty full Paul. 
09:48 Erica5612: Hello! I am new to this and looking forward to the livestream. Erica 
09:48 guest-2602: Hi! 
09:48 Chris Carr: I too am new to this and I am excited to see what it is all about! 
09:49 guest-2601: Hello Erica, Teresa, and Chris. What and where do you teach? 
09:49 guest-2766: Hello! 
09:49 guest-2601: I teach high school English and media in Utah. 
09:50 Erica5612: Hi Chris. I teach fifth grade in Naples, Florida 
09:50 Chris Carr: I am a K-5 Visual Arts teacher in Pennsylvania. 
09:50 guest-2601: Nice to have some elementary teachers tonight 
09:50 Erica5612: Are you taking the Internet Tools for Teaching course? 
09:50 guest-2767: Greetings all! 
09:50 guest-2768: Im here and hoping this works on my iPhone 
09:51 guest-2602: I am a former elementary, middle and high school English Teacher/reading specialist. This year I am out of the classroom as an Academic Support Specialist with a program that works with students of color. 
09:51 Chris Carr: Yes I am! EDIM 514, Baby! 
09:51 guest-2601: What's the Internet Tools for Teaching course? 
09:51 Erica5612: Yay!!! Me too. 
09:51 guest-2601: @Teresa. Do you like the change? 
09:51 Chris Carr: Wilkes University in Scranton Pa Masters Program 
09:52 guest-2601: Welcome EDIM 514 people 
09:52 Erica5612: Chris S the internet tools for teaching course is Master's Program at Wilke 
09:52 guest-2601: What's the assignment? 
09:52 Chris Carr: Is there something special we have to do for audio? i can't hear anyone yet. 
09:52 guest-2769: Hi all! 
09:52 guest-2769: Same here Chris 
09:53 pgeorge: Hi everyone 
09:53 guest-2766: Everyone went silent. 
09:53 pgeorge: no audio for me yet either :-) 
09:53 guest-2602: @Chris- In many ways, I am enjoying it. I do miss daily contact with kids. But I have many ways to be with kids. 
09:53 guest-2601: Hi Jenn. What and where do you teach? 
09:53 Chris Carr: The assignment is to login to EdTech Talk and interact with the presentation and then do a reflection on how we can use the information in the classroom 
09:53 guest-2601: no audio for me either 
09:53 Erica5612: I cannot hear sound either 
09:53 guest-2769: Middle School Science in Bound Brook, Nj 
09:54 guest-2601: I like the assignment. I've used a lot of TTT in my own classroom through the years 
09:54 guest-2601: I've even had students on the show every now and then 
09:54 TechBlogger: Am I at the right spot for the LIVE event? 
09:55 guest-2128: Alex's brother: http://phillpappas.com/ 
09:55 guest-2767: No audio? 
09:55 guest-2601: should be some audio soon. I'm in the hangout now and there's audio there 
09:56 Chris Carr: What is the "hangout"? 
09:56 guest-2767: Chris S, is the hangout full? 
09:56 pgeorge: @Kirstin-are you seeing it on your iPhone? I'm seeing it great on my iPhone but no audio yet 
09:57 guest-2601: nine people right now. 
09:57 guest-2770: hey all.. trying to learn how to read lips 
09:58 guest-2601: Are you getting audio now? 
09:58 Erica5612: No audio. 
09:58 pgeorge: not yet 
09:58 guest-2769: No 
09:58 Chris Carr: No Audio yet.. 
09:58 Erica5612: I even clicked onto Hangout and another tab with the same video 
09:59 pgeorge: this lip reading is kind of fun :-) 
09:59 guest-2771: Hi everyone. 
09:59 pgeorge: Hi Lisa 
10:00 guest-2601: The audio is working for me. If you click on the livestream window next to the chat, you're still not getting audio? 
10:00 guest-2771: Peggy, do you have a Tweet I can send out? 
10:00 guest-2767: No audio here. 
10:00 Chris Carr: SSSSup Lisa? 
10:00 pgeorge: TTT Livestream Studio and Chat | EdTechTalk -- Ad: http://t.co/NzL4dLxe - Story: http://t.co/486Hprq9 
10:00 pgeorge: that's someone elses tweet but it works :-) 
10:01 pgeorge: I'm still not getting audio 
10:01 guest-2771: If school was wonderful, it wouldn't need to be compulsory. In a free country we shouldn't be forced to go to school. 
10:01 guest-2768: Can't hear anything. Please advise. 
10:02 guest-2601: audio now? 
10:02 pgeorge: Chris Sloan-are you hearing the audio in Hangout? Can't hear it in Livestream 
10:02 guest-2767: Yay! 
10:02 pgeorge: hooray!!!!!!!!!! 
10:02 guest-2770: any idea how we are to complete tonight's assignment if we can't hear what is going on/ sound! 
10:02 pgeorge: audio!!!!! 
10:03 guest-2601: Sorry about that 
10:03 Chris Carr: Audio YAHOOOOO! 
10:03 guest-2602: @lisa You are right, if school was wonderful, kids would want to go. But does that mean we shouldn't have the attitude that we WANT them to want to be there? 
10:03 guest-2765: serious echo problem 
10:04 guest-2767: Sound is good here. 
10:04 guest-2601: Try headphones to kill the echo 
10:04 Lililaprofe: Hi, I am also new at this. Excited as well! I can hear now! 
10:04 Paul Allison: if you are in the hangout - you should not have livestream on.. 
10:04 pgeorge: I'm even getting great audio/video on my iphone :-) 
10:04 guest-2771: We can want them to be there, but we have to make schools relevant and interesting enough for them to choose to be there. Right now we're no where near that. 
10:05 guest-2604: I think that we need to deconstruct the idea of "engagement" -- right on, Todd! 
10:05 guest-2601: @Lisa. It depends on the class and the approach. Maybe I'm delusional but my media students in particular like being there 
10:05 guest-2604: We had a bit of a back channel conversation about Dan Pink's Drive last week. 
10:05 guest-2771: I don't think engagement is enough 
10:05 guest-2765: church can and should be a great place but people - especially young people don't go 
10:05 guest-2601: right. Define engagement. 
10:07 guest-2771: guest 2765, that is because many churches have lost relevancy and are not engaging environment. Imagine if church was compulsory. 
10:07 guest-2602: @Lisa Can you clarify what you mean when you say engagement isn't enough? 
10:07 guest-2604: One way to define engagement: autonomy, mastery, purpose (http://www.danpink.com/drive
10:07 guest-2771: School will never be engaging and relevant if it is standardized rather than customized. 
10:08 guest-2767: Perhaps "compulsory" makes an environment inherently less engaging? 
10:08 guest-2604: Another: The psychology of "flow": http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flow_(psychology) 
10:08 guest-2771: Teresa, a class can be engaging and even entertaining, but not relevant or meaningful to a student's success. 
10:08 Wagner11: These are recorded, correct? We can watch the intro again I hope. 
10:09 guest-2601: yes they are recorded. 
10:09 guest-2604: Can we also ask -- what's the purpose of school(ing)? 
10:09 guest-2767: "Why" (relevance) is key to engagement. 
10:10 guest-2602: I agree school shouldn't be standardized, but I agree with @Chris that there are many spaces and places where it is "engaging" and students find value. 
10:10 guest-2766: Yes, Lisa, I think engagement is very contextual and individual. 
10:10 guest-2771: Something can be engaging without being relevant. 
10:11 guest-2602: So, what then makes classes relevant? How do we define relevance in a rapidly evolving society?
10:11 guest-2767: http://hourschool.com/ 
10:12 guest-2602: @Troy- good question. What IS the purpose of school? 
10:12 guest-2601: Can something be relevant without being "engaging"? 
10:12 pgeorge: good question @Chris! 
10:12 guest-2767: Sure...relevance is in the eye of the beholder, no? 
10:12 Erica5612: Thank you. This sounds very interesting and I am going to check this out. Is this for adults only? 
10:13 guest-2601: no Erica. non-adults are always welcome 
10:13 guest-2602: @Chris I do think something can be relevant w/o being engaging. There are some things that I think we need to learn. I hate doing my taxes, but I need to know what the tax laws are when I complete them. 
10:13 guest-2602: @Erica- welcome! All voices are welcomed. 
10:14 guest-2767: Passion is another key to engagement 
10:15 guest-2601: Karen, there's room in the hangout 
10:16 guest-2771: If a person finds something relevant there is usually a way to learn it in an engaging way. Of course, if you are not learning with/from others that don't meet your learning style, it may not be engaging. Therefore you need both. Engagement and relevance. 
10:16 guest-2767: ok, i'll hop over. if someone else wants to join in, i'll jump out. 
10:16 guest-2601: ok 
10:16 guest-2769: I thought magnet schools were a good idea because then students were engaged and passionate. I am not sure why we do not have more. 
10:16 guest-2604: I think that asking the question about the purpose of schooling is really quite relevant here. 
10:16 guest-2771: Teresa, many Americans don't know complex tax laws and they don't need to. They can hire accountants. 
10:17 guest-2767: Jenn, good question...funding issues, I suspect. 
10:17 guest-2766: hi karen! 
10:17 guest-2602: @Lisa I can't afford an accountant! 
10:17 guest-2767: hi todd 
10:17 guest-2604: There are many purposes for schools -- some of which are positive and purposeful, some of which are meant to provide certain structures, some of which can be argued are very destructive to individual and social well-being. 
10:17 guest-2767: Choice...another big element. 
10:17 guest-2604: It depends on who you ask, when you ask, and why you ask... of course... 
10:18 guest-2771: The thing that is important is that individuals, not the government, should be able to choose what people learn. 
10:18 guest-2769: Karen-Funding? I guess but why does it always come down to money? It is a shame! 
10:18 guest-2604: But, there are many ways to think about schools. We could argue that schools are doing exactly what they are designed to do... they act as a holding pen for quite some time (say, about 8th grade), and then they set up social stratifications. 
10:19 guest-2767: Purpose of schools is an interesting topic. Many say that it is really a holding pen more than anything. If that's the case, you'd sure design things differently. 
10:20 Erica5612: I fully agree that students do not need all of the general education courses of high school to achieve success. Alternative settings should be offered in all areas of the country to support the interests of others who are seeking careers that are non traditional 
10:21 guest-2781: Hi all 
10:21 guest-2771: Here is my teenager's guide to opt out of school http://store.payloadz.com/go?id=979066 
10:22 guest-2767: Hi, Scott. Do you want a spot in the hangout? I think it's full but I'm happy to jumping out for a bit. 
10:22 guest-2781: No, you stay. I don;t have much to offer on this topic 
10:23 Chris Carr: I think that until we fix education at a NATIONAL level and get away from standardized testing and focus more on authentic project based learning that teaches real applicable 
10:23 guest-2771: Here is what educational thought leaders discussed about what school should help everyone know http://theinnovativeeducator.blogspot.com/2012/01/what-should-every-citi...
10:23 guest-2767: ok, if you change your mind, let me know. :) is your daughter there? i think student voices on this are most important. 
10:24 Chris Carr: sorry...real applicable information and skills...we will not see more engagement and motivation to "stay in school". 
10:24 Wagner11: Very true! 
10:25 guest-2604: I may have shared this last week, but it's worth sharing again: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/schools/testing/companies....
10:25 guest-2604: Can we all start a list (positive and negative) -- what are the purposes of schooling? 
10:25 guest-2781: @karen - I'm trying to get Kelsey now... 
10:25 guest-2771: I don't think Summerhill is closed http://www.summerhillschool.co.uk/ 
10:26 guest-2604: For instance, one of the arguments "against" home schooling is that kids don't get "socialized." That can be good or bad, right? Depends on who you are talking with... and why. 
10:27 guest-2604: So, part of "schooling" is the idea that we expose people to new ideas.. 
10:27 guest-2604: ... we also know that it is very easy to get caught up in our own worlds, without seeking or understanding new ideas. 
10:27 guest-2767: Prompt: School *should* be about ___. 
10:28 guest-2771: Here is a post about who created the common core http://theinnovativeeducator.blogspot.com/2010/03/they-here-common-core-...
10:28 guest-2766: @hickstro. Pearson's educational materials (alone) earned them $1.8 billion last year. 
10:28 guest-2604: And, unfortunately, the internet is actually narrowing our scope: http://www.thefilterbubble.com/ 
10:28 guest-2767: School should be about helping people find and explore their passion. 
10:28 Erica5612: I agree karen 
10:28 guest-2604: Right, Todd. Think about all those public dollars going into corporate profits... rather than teacher salaries, keeping schools open, etc. 
10:28 guest-2771: I agree too Karen. 
10:29 guest-2766: And now Pearson is more involved in teacher training. 
10:30 guest-2771: Anyone who homeschools laughs at the socialization thing. They are after all living in the real world, not confined in school constantly being asked to be quiet and pay attention and grouped unnaturally by date of manufacture. 
10:30 Lililaprofe: I agree with you Karen. Students need some guidance and teachers can do that! Facilitate learning! 
10:30 guest-2781: @Karen - Kelsey is here now 
10:30 guest-2604: So, we agree that there is some value in having students in school is that they get some exposure to new ideas and people? 
10:30 guest-2767: Great. I'll jump out of the hangout. 
10:30 pgeorge: is Kelsey in the hangout? 
10:30 guest-2604: @Lisa -- and, what is your response to that? 
10:30 guest-2781: sitting next to me 
10:31 guest-2771: Teachers are often NOT the best folks to provide guidance. It is often peers, mentors, experts, and others. 
10:31 guest-2601: Does Kelsey want to join the hangout, Scott? 
10:31 guest-2767: i'm out. 
10:31 guest-2767: Welcome, Kelsey :) 
10:31 Chris Carr: I love the conversation about creating a school environment of passion and self-directed learning...do WE as teachers control that? OR do our State government's force curriculum standards on us that handcuff our ability to make school about student interests? 
10:32 guest-2604: @Chris -- honestly, I think that individual teachers in their classrooms have the ability to make that happen. I know that they work in an oppressive, test-driven system... but teachers have agency, don't they? 
10:32 guest-2767: So...to help people find and explore their passion, we have to allow student CHOICE. 
10:32 Lililaprofe: Chris I think both. We are expected to teach curriculum but we can also instill creativity in our classrooms 
10:32 guest-2771: Exposure to ideas and people is great but school doesn't do that. It forces students to take subjects they may not be interested in from people they may not learn well from. 
10:33 guest-2767: Teacher agency -- we have to talk more about this! 
10:33 guest-2604: @Karen -- yes, providing choice is part of it. Yet, to what degree do we have responsibility for providing some structure -- in the classroom, curriculum, etc? 
10:33 guest-2766: Teachers are incredibly resilient and creative. 
10:33 guest-2767: I think you can have choice and structure. 
10:34 guest-2604: @Lisa -- "It forces students to take subjects they may not be interested in from people they may not learn well from." To what degree do you think that most students would pursue a course of study -- on their own -- that would provide them the kind of broad education that they get in school? Is that a good thing, or not? 
10:34 guest-2781: "treating" motivation.... hmmmm 
10:34 guest-2602: @hickstro @chris Maybe I have been spoiled, but I have felt like I have the ability/freedom to address standards in relevant ways in my classroom. When I disagreed w/curriculum mandates, I backed up my alternate choices with research and student success in my classrooms. 
10:34 guest-2771: Teachers lose creativity and resiliency when they are forced to test children and teach a test prep curriculum as is happening in many schools in my district. 
10:35 guest-2771: Teresa B, you have the ability/freedom, what about your students having that? 
10:35 Erica5612: Nick thank you for sharing your personal challenges as a student. You bring a great perspective to this topic that needs to be addressed 
10:35 guest-2604: @Lisa -- Agreed, it is overwhelming. However... if they are going to be gauged on student success, then they need to figure out how to engage them. We know test prep doesn't work. We know PBL, inquiry-based, technology-rich, and flexible learning does. 
10:35 guest-2781: Passion makes the difference 
10:35 Erica5612: I can understand your frustrations and I happy that you found your passion. 
10:36 guest-2604: To what extent can we provide those opportunities in schools? 
10:36 guest-2602: @Lisa- as much as I could build in student choice, I did. My kids were a part of daily decisions in our classroom. As much as anyone who is part of a team or organization can. 
10:36 guest-2767: Nick, we'd love to have you help teach coding on p2up! http://www.p2pu.org 
10:37 guest-2604: Lisa -- Are there subjects that we should "impose" on students? 
10:37 guest-2604: Reading? 
10:37 guest-2604: Writing? 
10:37 guest-2604: Math? 
10:38 guest-2604: Art? 
10:38 guest-2604: Music? 
10:38 Wagner11: I'm Emily and I was thinking school should be about preparing for the real world; building innovative thinkers with opportunities to collaborate. 
10:38 guest-2604: Design? 
10:38 guest-2767: There are engaging ways to teach every subject, no? 
10:38 guest-2601: Nick just talked about how history was imposed on him (at least that's how I interpreted it), and he valued it 
10:38 guest-2781: Teach them to communicate and the basics will develop organically 
10:39 guest-2767: Good point, Emily. That's a lot of the thinking behind the Common Core sds. 
10:39 Chris Carr: Of course we have to provide structure and we CAN make a difference in our classrooms. Teachers can be quickly disillusioned with education when they are constantly having to TEST students...teachers SHOULD be allowed to teach the curriculum in ways that they think will engage their students...after all WE know our students needs, Don't we? 
10:39 guest-2767: It's hard to prepare ppl for a future when we don't know what it will be 
10:39 guest-2766: Karen, there ARE engaging ways to teach every subject--entrypoints. 
10:41 Wagner11: I would think, Karen. This goes back to teachers needing to be more engaging and creative. Like Project Based Learning? 
10:41 Lililaprofe: I'm out. Thank you all for your discussion. 
10:41 guest-2767: I am sincerely hoping that the new assessments do what they are supposed to -- if so, that will change this whole conversation. 
10:41 guest-2604: Lisa - thanks for your response. 
10:42 guest-2604: I feel much the same way as you do, honestly. 
10:42 pgeorge: I wish that were true @Karen :-) That would be very exciting! 
10:42 guest-2601: what are the new assessments? 
10:42 guest-2767: Yes, Emily. PBL. 
10:42 guest-2781: Hi chris - Kelsey says hello 
10:42 guest-2601: hello Kelsey. We need to hear from you 
10:42 guest-2604: And, yet, I wonder what value we can bring to the experience of "schooling" -- as educators, teacher educators, parents, community members... 
10:42 guest-2767: New assessments to go with CCSS. Supposed to be about higher order thinking, 21st century skills, etc. 
10:43 guest-2767: Kelsey, Kelsey, Kelsey :) 
10:43 guest-2601: I know. I just haven't actually seen them. And since these assessments are going to shape practice, I'd like to know what's coming 
10:43 guest-2766: What about a model like the one used with Google employees. Where they get 20% (?) of their time to work on pet projects. 
10:43 pgeorge: those assessments are still a long ways off and will start with ELA and Math--still subject oriented 
10:43 guest-2771: I am not counting on test prep / publishing companies to produce assessments that drive meaningful learning. 
10:43 guest-2604: Smarter Balanced: http://www.smarterbalanced.org/ 
10:43 guest-2767: Chris, no one's seen them yet, but the discussions look good so far 
10:44 guest-2767: And I really don't think the publishing companies are driving it (yet anyway) 
10:44 guest-2771: @Todd, why do free students have to be forced 80% of the time? Why can't students drive their learning? 
10:44 guest-2604: This is where millions of the RTTT funds went to -- these assessment groups. 
10:44 guest-2601: but even Smarter Balanced... I don't get a clear sense of where that's going, but maybe I'm missing something. 
10:44 guest-2767: Performance based assessmts are a step in the right direction 
10:45 guest-2767: Only time will tell. 
10:45 guest-2766: Lisa -- I'm trying to move away from binaries (where it's this or that, freedom or fascism. 
10:45 guest-2767: Hope everyone keeps an open mind though... I've been sad to see what I think is the potential of CCSS immediately be disregarded as more of the same 
10:46 guest-2767: Todd, I like that :) 
10:47 guest-2767: Good point Kelsey. There is no one answer for all people . 
10:47 guest-2767: No silver bullets in the modern world. 
10:47 guest-2604: Chris -- I think that Smarter Balanced is tied to ETS: http://www.ets.org/ Home of GRE, NAEP, Praxis, SAT 
10:47 guest-2604: Hmm... wonder how that happened... 
10:48 guest-2771: Todd, If you give learners freedom, they can choose a more traditional environment if they want that. School should not be force. 
10:48 guest-2767: If anyone's looking for a *really* interesting look at student engagement, check out http://ceep.indiana.edu/hssse/ Fascinating read focused on student voices 
10:49 guest-2604: Lisa -- again, what is the purpose of "school?" If this is a taxpayer-funded, compulsory experience, what does the public expect of schooling? 
10:49 pgeorge: thanks for all of the links you're sharing-very helpful 
10:49 guest-2604: And, I ask this in both ways -- as someone who fully believes in your message 
10:49 guest-2766: I agree. There are some kids that prefer and achieve more in traditional curriculum. 
10:49 guest-2604: And as someone who is really trying to see the value in schools 
10:50 guest-2604: In other words, what's worth "saving" in school? In schooling? Anything? 
10:50 guest-2766: Teachers! 
10:50 guest-2771: Hickstro, the purpose of school should be to serve young people. 
10:50 guest-2771: There are models that work but the government refuses to fund them. 
10:51 guest-2604: Karen, I think that CCSS give us lots of opportunity to rethink curriculum, PBL, authentic assessments, etc. 
10:51 guest-2604: Sadly, however, that is not why they were developed. 
10:51 guest-2767: Personal ocntact + connection w/ an adult is a big predictor of engagement 
10:51 guest-2781: Lots of good ideas, but many teachers cant/wont find the time... 
10:51 guest-2604: There is a straight line that you can draw from CCSS to RTTT to the new assessments to the publishing powerhouses, all of whom benefit from having (some kinds of) kids fail tests. 
10:52 guest-2604: Lisa -- what models, in particular? Charters? Vouchers? 
10:52 guest-2604: What do you mean by "models that work?" What is "working?" 
10:52 guest-2766: Check out Anne Gere's CEL. 
10:53 pgeorge: what does a teacher do if they believe passionately in student choice and engagement as is being described but they have to accept a job in a traditional public school to survive and support their family? 
10:54 guest-2781: Close your door and covertly do what is best for the kids ( hi Peggy) 
10:54 pgeorge: Hi Scott :-) 
10:54 guest-2781: Kelsey says hi, too 
10:54 guest-2767: Exactly. Thank you, Scott. 
10:54 pgeorge: that only works as long as the principal is willing to look the other way :-) 
10:54 guest-2604: Right - sometimes having twenty people in a room is better than just one person in front of a computer. 
10:55 guest-2766: Is the US Army a legitimate schooling options (more cynism and a legitimate question). 
10:55 guest-2781: Just as students have to balance school/life, teachers have to balance choice and prescribed curriculum 
10:56 guest-2781: @Alex - I went to college 4 times also 
10:56 guest-2602: @Scott- Good point! 
10:57 guest-2766: I lke that this conversation is student-centered, not just delivery-focused. 
10:59 guest-2601: Can't hear your audio Paul 
10:59 guest-2604: @Lisa -- I am reading your site, nodding my head in agreement with many of your thoughts about unschooling/home schooling. 
10:59 guest-2781: Ahhh.. metacognition. 
10:59 guest-2602: @Todd- In the end, the students should always be the focus. If they aren't there, what jobs would we all be doing?! :-) 
11:00 guest-2766: Amen! 
11:00 pgeorge: well stated!! 
11:00 guest-2604: I just wonder -- what is it that schools can/could do well/better than a student guided only by his/her own passions and a parent at home who may/may not understand a scope of curriculum across subject areas?
11:01 guest-2771: Thanks hickstro ;) 
11:01 pgeorge: all right Chris!!! That's the schtick :-) Great job! 
11:01 guest-2767: Thanks, everyone. Have a good one. Be the change you want to see. :) 
11:01 Chris Carr: Thanks All that was GREAT!!! 
11:01 Wagner11: Thank you! 
11:02 guest-2769: Thanks! 
11:02 guest-2601: Hope to see you all next week 
11:02 pgeorge: thanks for the great dialogue!! 
11:02 guest-2766: That was fun! Thanks! 
11:02 guest-2771: hickstro, students aren't guided only by their passions or parents. part of our jobs is to help/empower them to build learning networks. 
11:02 guest-2771: Thanks all 
11:03 Paul Allison: Okay... learned more about sound tonight... Scott - we'll talk. 
11:03 guest-2764: Thanks everyone! Great chat... would love to connect with all of you offline to continue the conversation. Check out HourSchool.com email me at alex@hourschool.com @drawsalot and ruby@hourschool.com @rubyku 
11:03 guest-2764: Cheers! -Alex


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