Conversations Episode 67 - Ethics and Copyright/Copyleft
This week, Lisa, Sheila, and Maria were joined by Kristin Hokanson in the chatroom and Alec Couros in the skype call to discuss copyright and fair use, copyleft and cc licensing, and the ethics surrounding it all.
11:25:53 Lisa Parisi : Welcome Cathy and Wayne
11:31:38 Sheila : Morning all!
11:31:53 PeggyG : good morning! looks like peole are having problems logging in today
11:32:06 PeggyG : are you using ustream today?
11:32:14 Sheila : yes.
11:32:54 mslaneeus : Can't get the audio. I'll log out and try again.
11:33:33 PeggyG : is there any audio yet?
11:33:41 mslaneeus : Nothing for me.
11:33:47 PeggyG : me either
11:33:53 Maureen : none for me yet
11:34:02 Sheila : not yet
11:34:04 PeggyG : then we're in good company :-)
11:34:04 Lisa Parisi : We're trying
11:34:13 Maureen : it's coming in on etta
11:34:16 PeggyG : ETT has had a lot of server issues this week
11:35:08 Sheila : Stream is up on ustream.
11:35:09 Maureen : nothing yet on ustream, only etta
11:35:20 PeggyG : great! getting it on ETTA now
11:35:35 mslaneeus : Nope. My last name happens to be Lane
11:35:35 Maureen : now ustream is up
11:35:49 mslaneeus : So I'm Ms. Lane. Hence the name.
11:35:49 PeggyG : :-)
11:35:53 mslaneeus : I can hear.
11:36:14 PeggyG : today is the day that daylight savings time changes--people may have the wrong time
11:36:40 MariaK : Hi everyone!
11:36:45 PeggyG : Hi Maria
11:36:50 Lisa Parisi : Ah...Ms. Lane.
11:36:52 Lisa Parisi : Cute
11:36:56 MariaK : I couldn't get in with Firefox but Safari
11:37:00 MariaK : was fine
11:37:10 mslaneeus : I'm in with Firefox.
11:37:17 PeggyG : I've had tons of problems with Firefox this week and went back to Flock
11:37:41 Maureen : it's nasty here- sleet and snow last night, lost power- now cold nasty rain
11:38:18 mslaneeus : No rain here!
11:38:40 PeggyG : what a cute pie for Pi Day!
11:38:46 Cathy E : decent on the coast of NC - cloudy but no rain
11:39:05 PeggyG : so sorry your weather is so bad Maureen! beautiful in Phoenix now--high 70's
11:39:06 courosa : i don't hear the echo
11:39:46 khokanson : hey all
11:39:51 Lisa Parisi : Hi Kristin
11:39:55 Maureen : Did you invite LisaT?
11:39:55 PeggyG : sounds like a break-through Lisa! congrats!
11:40:06 khokanson : can someone pass to lisa no skype here :(
11:40:24 PeggyG : Hi Kristin-I was going to tell them about the great PBS webinar this past week--now you can :-)
11:40:46 PeggyG : Hi Alec-always great to have you join these conversations!
11:40:54 Maureen : @peggyg- it was an excellent conversation on PBS webinar
11:41:05 PeggyG : yes it was an outstanding webinar!
11:41:22 khokanson : lol peggy you may need to drop the link in...had to have my laptop sent out so I am on a LOANER UGH :(
11:41:23 PeggyG : recording is posted :-) well worth listening to again!
11:41:24 courosa : Thanks Peggy! I rarely get the time these days, but I enjoy these - a real treat.
11:41:56 PeggyG : that's a great success story Lisa!
11:42:18 McTeach : I'm getting the same questions!!
11:43:16 courosa : poor forsaken Pluto
11:43:16 PeggyG : http://www.classroom20.com/events/pbs-cr-20copyright-and-fair Information and recording link here: Copyright and Fair Use with awesome experts!
11:43:40 Maureen : OT, but while I'm thinking about it- need the best portable app for bright 3rd grader- speech to text. Any ideas?
11:43:51 PeggyG : what a great idea for Earthcast Sheila!!
11:44:40 PeggyG : I like that we're using half hour slots for Earthcast this year! nice options for schools
11:45:21 Sheila : http://earthbridges.wikispaces.com/
11:45:39 PeggyG : http://earthbridges.wikispaces.com/Earthcast+2010
11:45:40 Maureen : What??? That's silly
11:46:04 Maureen : Do you teach "bubble children"
11:46:24 Sheila : Wiki for sign-ups. We will have more planning meetings soon. For the live stream - http://earthbridges.net
11:46:28 Lisa Parisi : We don't go out when there is snow. We do go out when the blacktop is dry.
11:46:35 Lisa Parisi : They just stay on the blacktop.
11:46:47 PeggyG : http://earthcast.posterous.com/earthcast-2010-a-global-24-hour-webcastat... this is a great blog post that explains all about Earthcast 2010 with links to the other sites
11:46:51 khokanson : I know that is my issue with this loaner- am working w/ 1/4 the HD and speed I am used to none of my aps I added- it is REALLY crippling
11:47:15 PeggyG : isn't that frustrating Kristin??!!
11:47:30 mslaneeus : @ Lisa...you don't go out at all when there is any snow?
11:47:42 Lisa Parisi : Nope
11:48:00 Maureen : @Lisa We don't go out if the windchill is really bad or if it's pouring. The little kids have to wear snowpants, etc... or they have to stay on the blakctop
11:48:03 mslaneeus : Wow. We'd be inside all the time.
11:48:09 Lisa Parisi : Not unless the blacktop is dry. Half our playground is blacktop for wall ball and basketball playing
11:48:48 Sheila : Thanks PeggyG for all the links! :)
11:49:13 PeggyG : @Maureen do you want speech to text for a Mac or PC? online or software?
11:49:24 Maureen : A while back when I taught K- we had a real cold spell- kids set up a store and starting selling all the stuff we had in class.
11:49:47 Maureen : @peggy g- I was thinking an ipod or itouch
11:49:48 PeggyG : I saved all of my Earthcast links in one place so I could share them on the ETT newsletter--refer to it all the time :-)
11:49:48 mslaneeus : What kind of temps would constitute a real cold spell?
11:50:14 PeggyG : I have a good iphone app called Dragon Dictation-you might try that
11:50:17 Maureen : @mslaneeus -20° F
11:51:02 Maureen : @peggy- I tried dragon, but he talks quickly- may be a learning curve for him, it wasn't coming up in text to be anywhere close
11:51:25 mslaneeus : @Maureen. Yep....that would keep me indoors!
11:51:31 PeggyG : http://www.tuaw.com/2009/12/08/dragon-dictation-comes-to-the-iphone-wow/ it worked pretty well on my practice
11:51:34 Maureen : It may be poor mannners, but it is legal...
11:51:49 Lisa Parisi : Should there be a difference between legality and ethics?
11:52:03 khokanson : BINGO
11:52:12 courosa : I don't think the issue is the CC license, it is in fact ethics. For instance, you can use Fair Use to critique someone in a very bad way - it doesn't always have to be ethical.
11:52:14 Maureen : @lisa- there is- it's copyright- the law, vs ethics and citationa
11:52:23 courosa : What you just said Lisa - there IS a difference.
11:52:33 PeggyG : I heard a quote this past week (think it was Lessig) Just because you CAN do something doesn't mean you SHOULD. Could apply here :-)
11:52:46 khokanson : It isn't about licensing....
11:52:55 Cathy E : So you don't think I should post Kevin Honeycutt's video even if I give him credit?
11:53:06 PeggyG : I think there is a difference
11:53:22 khokanson : it is about thinking critically about anything you use what is the context and situation of the original and your purpose
11:53:29 khokanson : DARN SLOW MACHINE
11:53:30 PeggyG : why not Cathy E? it's licensed with CC
11:53:45 khokanson : SORRY
11:53:51 Maureen : If you use attribution on flickr, for e.g., then your images can appear in ads- like the Virgin mobile case.
11:54:07 PeggyG : Kevin wants people to share his video and I have it on our AzTEA site because he is our keynote at our conference in May
11:54:27 Cathy E : I disagree
11:54:29 khokanson : and I think in this case, people don't UNDERSTAND the rules
11:54:36 Maureen : It's more etiquette than anything else
11:54:52 Cathy E : Kevin wants his video to be viewed by as many people as possible
11:55:24 khokanson : so for example...if you think about what CC says...it says you can use, copy, redistribute, share as long as you give credit and share the same way
11:55:28 khokanson : LIsa...
11:55:32 PeggyG : so many teachers are confused by copyright--that's why Kristin's title is so perfect!! Copyright Confusion!!
11:55:37 khokanson : What you are talking about thous IS ethics
11:55:48 khokanson : HERE is an example
11:55:50 khokanson : shhh
11:55:54 khokanson : it is a good one :)
11:56:11 khokanson : How many times do you copy and article in class and give it to kids to discuss
11:56:19 courosa : i don't agree with that, i think many laws keep us unethical
11:56:21 Maureen : And the case this past week- was legal and fine according to CC, it just wasn't in line with what most bloggers and the community find acceptable
11:56:35 khokanson : isn't it the same then reposteing what someone writies on their blogs and ask folks THEIR thoughts
11:56:36 Cathy E : so if I show it at a staff meeting or post it in a skype chat - then maybe one of those people would hire Kevin to come speak at their conference
11:57:00 PeggyG : some laws haven't changed for hundreds of years and are still on the books!
11:57:24 Sheila : So are you talking about intention CathyE?
11:57:32 khokanson : and teh problem with Copyright Clause is it was written long before the time of redistribution
11:57:34 PeggyG : good example Kristin!
11:57:37 Maureen : I agree with Maria- it is just community guidelines and ethics
11:57:37 Lisa Parisi : Alec, turn on skype
11:57:57 McTeach : Do laws really guide ethics?
11:58:02 courosa : it's on
11:58:14 PeggyG : laws make people think it's ok if you don't get caught :-)
11:58:19 mslaneeus : The laws are not up to date with the technology
11:58:22 Cathy E : but building a house on someone else's property is very different than posting a video that that person wants to share
11:58:22 khokanson : ok but copyright law says you CAN use other's stuff...and CC says you can use ANYTHING
11:58:54 Maureen : I think that this was an unfortunate case of a relatively new blogger and an over-reaction by the community
11:58:59 PeggyG : and transformative uses are so important to understand!!
11:59:02 khokanson : and property IS VERY DIFFERENT from intellectual property
11:59:04 McTeach : It's because he's Canadian! :)
11:59:07 Cathy E : so what you are saying that Re-Tweets are wrong
11:59:46 courosa : must be the patriot act kicking me off
11:59:49 Lisa Parisi : I see twitter as different
11:59:52 khokanson : copyright law says you CAN use other's stuff...it was designed to promote creativity innovation and spread of knowlege ....USE IT FOR NEW IDEAS
12:00:13 Cathy E : different than what?
12:00:27 khokanson : I think it is more important to learn how to use Copyrighted material than to teach kids to only use CC stuff
12:00:34 PeggyG : so many people don't understand the purpose of copyright law! great reminder Kristin!
12:00:52 khokanson : it is the thinking process and being able to articulate why you are choosing to use what you are using
12:01:01 khokanson : even back tomy analogy of copying an article
12:01:23 khokanson : if you put a note: Read this article written by >>>>>> and list your ideas about >>>>>>
12:01:28 McTeach : Yeah, I've seen people do that all the time!
12:01:30 khokanson : with the article pasted
12:01:31 PeggyG : if you give attribution you can't fit it in 140 characters
12:01:41 Cathy E : But you give credit to a person's video you post
12:01:44 khokanson : that is EXACTLY what we do IN THE CLASSROOM
12:01:46 Maureen : @khokanson I hear what you are saying... so in my efforts to teach kids about cc, I am actually limiting their choices??
12:02:00 khokanson : you are limiting their higher level thinking
12:02:07 khokanson : then you are making up your own rules
12:02:20 khokanson : isn't a blog a form of conversation
12:02:25 khokanson : YEP
12:02:36 PeggyG : that's the challenge with retweets!
12:02:40 Lisa Parisi : Yes, but not quite the same conversation type
12:03:09 khokanson : so if you put something that someone in your blog to get YOUR audience involved in the conversation
12:03:10 PeggyG : isn't the key thing about retweeting to give credit to the original tweet--not all of the retweet people?
12:03:13 Sheila : Only if you allow commenting? then it's a conversation?
12:03:27 Lisa Parisi : I think it
12:03:59 Lisa Parisi : I think it's fine to use part of someone's blog, giving your own comments, asking for feedback. That higher level thinking.
12:04:11 Maureen : @khokanson- Ok, I think I understand better, but it's a slow process for me. I went to just CC vs allowing them to figure it out. Do you think that younger kids can do this- higher level of thinking? What age? "Age of reason"- 12 or so? or younger?
12:04:48 khokanson : I did it with my 10 year old when he was doing his report
12:05:08 PeggyG : someone in the PBS webinar asked why use CC if you can transform anything legally--what's your answer Alec and Kristin?
12:05:20 khokanson : I did it with my 6 year old when we did a topic talk...where did you get that image...idea....information > from a book, from a website.....
12:05:23 Maureen : @khokanson- yes, but that's 1:1, doing this in a whole classroom is more of a stretch
12:05:26 khokanson : WHY did you choose that
12:05:39 khokanson : but we need to start modeling the process
12:05:58 khokanson : an I don't think 3rd grade is too young to start the process
12:06:12 Maureen : I agree Kristin, but in a whole class it is harder to get those questions asked and answered.
12:06:34 PeggyG : I agree Kristin--as soon as they are online using digital sites with interaction they need to start learning
12:07:49 PeggyG : I've seen that happen where an entire blog post was published on someone's website without attribution--it was resolved by contacting the webmaster
12:07:58 khokanson : @alec I think it was....and I think our KIDS are doing the same thing because we don't teach them online skills
12:08:46 khokanson : not when you get into CC
12:09:35 Cathy E : I have very few origional ideas
12:09:46 khokanson : CC basically says we don't belive in the law so we are going to make up our own rules
12:09:54 Cathy E : that is why my pln is so great
12:10:07 Cathy E : exactly - Maria
12:10:23 PeggyG : in a webcast this week someone encouraged everyone to use CC with commercial use because it gave the possibility of it being used in textbook publication--do you think that's good advice?
12:11:11 PeggyG : look at how many of us have used Alec's Networked Teacher image!! I'm so thankful to have that to share!!
12:11:12 Maureen : @khokanson I don't think that CC says that at all. I think it is an alternative method vs the copyright law as written/used-
12:11:57 khokanson : but again I think it is CONTEXT and SITUATION that is important
12:12:18 khokanson : you need to ask the question ...in what context / situation was that article shared
12:12:29 Maureen : lost ALec
12:12:39 khokanson : were they using it as a class reading....to have others reflect upon it
12:13:10 McTeach : Boy, did I miss a lot on twitter this week!
12:13:25 PeggyG : such a good point Maria!
12:13:31 Maureen : I learned a lesson on the twitter discussion- some people like to call each other names and are very good at it
12:13:56 PeggyG : people are very quick to judge sometimes on twitter!!
12:14:46 khokanson : But Maria...I think that is WHY we need to be working on these skills with our kids
12:15:08 Sheila : Hope this served as a good learning opportunity for all. Sometimes we get complacent.
12:15:37 PeggyG : so true Sheila--very easy to become complacent
12:16:08 Maureen : Will R does this a lot... starts out with something he has read and thenn asks questions about it and invites others
12:16:13 khokanson : so then why were you so upset with someone posting, attributing, and asking audience for thoughts?
12:16:59 Lisa Parisi : It's not what was done, Kristin. The original blog was nothing from this blogger. It was a copy paste with an attribution at the end.
12:17:09 khokanson : but Maria....if you did....and if you were a tech coach...and if your audience is uncomfortable going out to find new things....and YOUR posting got them to think....
12:17:12 PeggyG : hadn't thought of Posterous as a brain dump
12:17:44 Maureen : @peggy g- I think David Jakes even calls his posterous a brain dump
12:18:02 khokanson : but Lisa I am just saying maybe this was done in elearning and said find an article you want us to think about and post it here
12:18:05 PeggyG : good point about Diigo Lisa
12:18:13 Lisa Parisi : Maybe, Kristin.
12:18:22 khokanson : plenty of grad schools are asking their students to do just that
12:18:23 Cathy E : Do you ever just bookmark that blog and not add any thoughts
12:18:31 Cathy E : CAn people see that?
12:18:34 Lisa Parisi : Yes.
12:18:38 khokanson : same thing as google reader when you share with others
12:18:39 Lisa Parisi : Yes.
12:18:56 khokanson : but SO MANY PEOPEL DON"T KNOW ABOUT HTHESE TOOLS!!!!!!!
12:18:57 PeggyG : shared books are exactly that way--bookmarked sites without comments
12:19:08 Lisa Parisi : But I don't ever assume that someone's Diigo page is all their own work.
12:19:18 khokanson : so we are back to the Karl Fisch argument of .... when does this become UNACCEPABLE
12:19:53 Maureen : When I make up a pageflakes page to share with my teachers- I just add content from a bunch of sources, then the discussion is live- not on the page. It would look much like the blog post in question.
12:19:54 PeggyG : @Kristin-where does Karl Fisch talk about that? do you have a link?
12:19:56 khokanson : not to know how to use the tools
12:20:26 Sheila : http://creativecommons.org/
12:20:39 Maureen : So, I could not take something out of this webcast- and use it?
12:20:46 Lisa Parisi : http://creativecommons.org/about/what-is-cc
12:21:01 Lisa Parisi : I thnk you can, Maureen
12:21:22 khokanson : I <3 Karl Fisch's best of the year ;-)
12:21:37 khokanson : YES YOU CAN...even if it is non-derivitive
12:21:40 khokanson : YES
12:21:45 khokanson : that was my point
12:21:50 Maureen : Paul B does this with his students all the time. His kids take songs- use the music, change the lyrics, sing them as the soundtrack to videos, etc... it's fair use
12:22:21 khokanson : http://thefischbowl.blogspot.com/2007/09/is-it-okay-to-be-technologicall...
12:22:43 khokanson : copyleft makes people feel like they are SAFE from thinking about Copyright law
12:22:46 khokanson : HOWEVER
12:23:02 khokanson : you NEED to teach kids to UNDERSTAND copyright law
12:23:16 khokanson : they can REGARDLESS
12:23:35 PeggyG : thanks for the link Kristin
12:23:37 Maureen : Lots of caps today Kristin :-)
12:24:11 khokanson : they can make derivitives regardless of if the CC license says no-derivatives if the context and situation in which they were different
12:24:16 Lisa Parisi : What I teach my kids is...you can use but you MUST give attribution and you must have a good reason for needing to use
12:24:31 MariaK : http://www.newmedialiteracies.org/
12:24:37 khokanson : @maureen LOL sorry so frustrating that I can't talk with passion about it :)
12:24:40 PeggyG : the caps are Kristin's passion coming through :-)
12:24:57 khokanson : see Peggy knows me
12:25:13 PeggyG : I feel your passion Kristin!
12:25:14 Maureen : Kristin- I know, I wish we could hear your voice today. You always make me think!
12:25:38 courosa : cool, thanks for the resource
12:26:24 Maureen : "Most of the webcast content on the Worldbridges.net Service is released with a Creative Commons Attribution Sharealike Non-Commercial "
12:26:34 PeggyG : New Media Literacies has become my new bible for fair use!
12:26:44 Sheila : Thanks Maureen.
12:26:52 courosa : So, if anyone wants to remix this podcast - you are technically free to do so. :-)
12:26:57 khokanson : http://frankwbaker.com/ check out these resources for media literacy too
12:27:07 Lisa Parisi : Not sure what you'd get out of it.
12:27:14 Cathy E : So right or wrong - I'm sharing this with you. Kevin Honeycutt was a speaker at our state conference last week - and if you have not seen this..it is great. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iCrhbgzf4Ys
12:27:22 PeggyG : thanks Maria-I have downloaded that white paper!
12:27:25 khokanson : he did a report that shows where media literacy lives in state standards
12:27:41 Maureen : I'm just finding that this discussion with my students is fascinating- lots of food for thought
12:28:09 PeggyG : don't you love that video CathyE? that's the one we have posted for our conference
12:28:14 Maureen : I showed the Colbert video to my 7th graders( minus the beginning with the questionable images) They loved it
12:28:36 courosa : Thanks for inviting me - this is one of my favorite topics.
12:28:42 Cathy E : @Peggy - yes it is the best! AND Kevin wants the world to see it!
12:28:50 PeggyG : such a great conversation!! thank you Alec and Kristin for lending your voice and thinking!! always valuable!
12:28:57 khokanson : MINE TOO ALEC
12:29:00 courosa : And I wrote "favorite" vs. "Favourite" in respect to our hosts.
12:29:14 PeggyG : :-) @courosa
12:29:17 Lisa Parisi : Thanks for being US centric Alec
12:29:24 Maureen : @Kristin Did you ever get a chance to look at the videos w/ my 7th graders talking about your scenarios?
12:29:30 khokanson : me too
12:29:42 khokanson : YES maureen they were AWESOME!
12:29:50 PeggyG : oh Maureen!! is that public? I would love to see your 7th graders discussing the scenarios!
12:29:56 Maureen : @kristin- Thanks
12:30:04 courosa : nice to connect, @khokanson - wish you could have done audio.
12:30:14 khokanson : I haven't been blogging much due to other grad work & certification stuff....
12:30:14 PeggyG : no time change in AZ!! always confusing!!
12:30:25 Maureen : @ peggy http://mybcd.org/computer7/
12:30:33 PeggyG : thanks Maureen!!!!
12:30:43 courosa : gotta run - a bowl of Cap'n Crunch awaits me :-) Thanks everyone.
12:30:48 PeggyG : my google calendar gets it right though :-)
12:30:55 PeggyG : thank you all!!
12:31:00 Lisa Parisi : Thanks Alec
12:31:14 khokanson : LOL me too
12:31:32 Lisa Parisi : http://ettconversations.blogspot.com/
12:31:40 khokanson : ok I have a little one to get down for a nap
12:31:41 PeggyG : bye everyone! have a great day!
12:31:50 Maureen : Thanks Kristin!
12:31:51 Lisa Parisi : Thanks Kristin for you voice, today.
12:31:52 khokanson : thanks everyone have a good day!!!!