Teachers Teaching Teachers #155 - 06.10.09 - (1 of 3) What's So New About Teaching the New Writing?

Post-Show description: 

Here's a couple of quotes from a MacArthur Spotlight that describes what you'll hear on this podcast:

On June 10th [the] editors of Teaching the New Writing, a new book from The National Writing Project, a MacArthur grantee. They discuss[ed] new directions in student composing as the boundaries between written, spoken, and visual blur and audiences expand.


Editors Anne Herrington, Kevin Hodgson, and Charles Moran from the Western Massachusetts Writing Project ... address[ed] these and other questions in this podcast, drawing from insights and discoveries they made while writing their new book, Teaching the New Writing. The book pulls together teachers’ stories, practices, and examples of students’ creative and expository writing from online and multimedia projects such as blogs, wikis, podcasts, and electronic poetry.

Jenna McWilliams (Indiana University) joined us in the chat room during the live webcast. She sparked a lot of lively conversation, and after the show, Jenna wrote a thoughtful revew of Teaching the New Writing:

The drive in these narratives is toward considering how new media technologies, and the accompanying valued mindsets, skillsets, and practices, change how we think about writing. Allison writes that "social networking technology allows us to ask the essential question: How do you get your work noticed online?" In "Senior Boards: Multimedia Presentations from Yearlong Research and Community-Based Culminating Project," Bryan Ripley Crandall describes his effort to shift senior project requirements to prepare learners for "writing for the real world":

[A]s an English teacher, I've had to adapt with new technology to keep up. I feel obligated to provide students the best technological resources I can because I recognize an online, digital life is what my students know and where they'll be in the future. Digital literacy is a growing expectation of higher education, employers, parents, and students.

Here, Crandall points to two key sentiments that run through Teaching the New Writing: That writing teachers recognize the need to integrate new media technologies and practices into their classrooms, and that they feel a little desperate at finding strategies for keeping up with the technological and cultural changes that give rise to this need.

See Jenna's entire Book review: Teaching the New Writing: Technology, change, and assessment in the 21st-century classroom

This podcast is the first of three Teachers Teaching Teachers shows this month that will focus on this book. On TTT#156 (June 17) and TTT#157 (June 24), we will have had various authors from the different chapters of Teaching the New Writing on the show.

Join us for Download this podcast and the next two as well.

Click Read more to see a transcript of a chat that was happening during the webcast.

20:40:40 SusanEttenheim: hi everyone
20:40:47 brew7vwp: hello
20:42:36 Kevin Hodgson: Hi
20:42:52 carolteach4: Hi, Susan. What is the topic this evening? I may only be able to participate for a short time. I have a sore throat, am fighting a cold, and need to get to bed pretty soon.
20:44:13 SusanEttenheim: brb
20:47:44 Paul Allison: Hello.
20:47:59 Paul Allison: I thought I'd put some links in here.
20:48:04 brew7vwp: hi
20:48:22 Paul Allison: Tonight's show is introduced here: http://spotlight.macfound.org/main/entry/webcast_teachers_writing_digita...
20:48:58 Paul Allison: We'll be talking with the editors of The New Writing: http://www.nwp.org/cs/public/print/books/teachingnewwriting
20:49:29 Paul Allison: It's a book published by Teachers College Press and the National Writing Project: http://www.nwp.org/
20:51:25 JennaMcWilliams: hi, everyone!
20:51:33 Paul Allison: On tonight's show, we have three guests: Anne Herington: http://www.umass.edu/english/facProfiles/Herrington.htm
20:51:55 Paul Allison: Kevin Hodgson will be with us: http://www.nwp.org/cs/public/print/nwp_au/1096
20:52:14 Kevin Hodgson: Hi
20:53:18 carolteach4: @Paul - the first two links gave me page load errors. The ones to Anne and Kevin were fine.
20:53:28 Kevin Hodgson: I was just sharing this poetry ezine with Christina http://spacezine.blogspot.com/ -- good example of audience, collaboration and youth writing in a digital world -- Paul, did your kids contribute?
20:54:53 Paul Allison: Oh and Charlie Moran will be joining us too: http://www.nwp.org/cs/public/print/nwp_au/455
20:54:57 Kevin Hodgson: Hi Fred
20:55:00 Jim: Hi
20:55:20 fred_haas: Hi Kevin, Paul, Susan, everyone.
20:55:29 fred_haas: Do we have audio yet?
20:56:34 JennaMcWilliams: i was just wondering about audio
20:57:21 Paul Allison: We will be starting in a few minutes.
20:57:27 Jim: The B Channel is a broken link according to my computer
20:57:58 Jim: The server is currently down on Channel A
20:58:14 fred_haas: Good to know
20:58:33 Paul Allison: Here's a preview of the show: http://spotlight.macfound.org/main/entry/webcast_teachers_writing_digita...
20:58:34 JennaMcWilliams: what do i do to make the sound go?
20:58:43 Paul Allison: Welcome all.
20:58:54 Paul Allison: Susan is working on geting the sound started.
20:59:24 JennaMcWilliams: okey dokey i'll just be patient
20:59:43 ElyseEA: Hi Jenna
20:59:50 Kevin Hodgson: Do you teach, Jenna?
21:00:09 JennaMcWilliams: i'm a researcher with Henry Jenkins's Project New Media Litearcies
21:00:29 SusanEttenheim: on our way everyone!
21:00:41 Kevin Hodgson: Oh -- neat --Have we met in this chat room before (not a come on, serious)?
21:00:59 Paul Allison: Hi Elyse
21:01:01 JennaMcWilliams: lulz i was at the webcast on participatory culture back in
21:01:03 JennaMcWilliams: oh, december
21:01:19 ElyseEA: Hi Paul...I'm not getting any sound.
21:01:30 JennaMcWilliams: ooo this is gonna be so great!
21:01:42 Paul Allison: The Server going to be restarted in a second.
21:01:51 ElyseEA: got it; thanks.
21:02:01 JennaMcWilliams: ok is it normal that i have no sound?
21:02:19 cynthiaN: no sound here either.  are we talk "A" or "B"?  (there's two choices in upper-right corner of screen)
21:02:29 ElyseEA: Hi Jenna,  Apparently there is a server problem.  It will be restarted in a minute.
21:02:39 JennaMcWilliams: ::taps foot excitedly::
21:02:52 matt montagne: hey all
21:02:58 fred_haas: Audio is on
21:03:03 cynthiaN: it's raining like mad here in Greensboro, NC
21:03:24 ElyseEA: Yes, audio is on!
21:03:45 Christina: hello everyone. I can hear too.
21:04:01 matt montagne: Sunny and 72 Here in Palo Alto,CA
21:04:25 SusanEttenheim: hi everyone can you hear us now?
21:04:26 ElyseEA: Hi Matt...balmy in Berkeley.
21:04:34 Jim: I have sound through iTunes
21:04:40 SusanEttenheim: thanks for your patience!
21:04:52 SusanEttenheim: I think we're set to go!
21:04:56 matt montagne: shout out from across the Bay Elysea!!
21:04:58 brew7vwp: how do you get the stream through iTunes?
21:04:59 JennaMcWilliams: grr no sound no sound!
21:05:17 SusanEttenheim: jenna what platform are you on?
21:05:28 matt montagne: @brew...click the little speaker icon under the E in EdtechTalk A in the upper right
21:05:29 ElyseEA: I'm getting great audio through iTunes.  Try that Jenna.
21:05:36 SusanEttenheim: don't worry - we'll get you up and running
21:05:42 cynthiaN: click speaker icon under EdTch talk A
21:05:45 Jim: I clicked on Channel A and then clicked on the Listen choice and iTunes popped up
21:05:53 brew7vwp: thanks matt- duh! didn't realize it was clickable
21:05:56 Christina: EdTechtalk A
21:06:02 fred_haas: @brew - you also have to have iTunes set as your default player
21:06:05 SusanEttenheim: hi everyone - please introduce yourself! where are you and what do you teach?
21:06:15 brew7vwp: all set, thanks
21:06:30 SusanEttenheim: hi gail welcome!
21:06:34 matt montagne: any media player will work actually...windows media player, even real player
21:06:40 SusanEttenheim: jenna are you set?
21:06:45 JennaMcWilliams: trying itunes
21:06:47 JennaMcWilliams: no sound yet
21:06:59 SusanEttenheim: did your itunes open?
21:07:01 matt montagne: wow, setting new standards in show organization...a Theme!
21:07:40 SusanEttenheim: hey matt - I've been talking to my students about working with your students next year!
21:07:41 ElyseEA: Yes, I' in the chatt room!
21:07:55 SusanEttenheim: welcome elyse - feel better!
21:07:57 JennaMcWilliams: grr brb reminding self how much i love technology
21:08:17 SusanEttenheim: amrowley welcome! where and what do you teach?
21:08:25 SusanEttenheim: welcome back gail
21:08:41 SusanEttenheim: brew - where and what do you teach?
21:08:43 matt montagne: @susan...that would be great in any way. Also, I really enjoyed the Women's Glib show...that was priceless work
21:08:45 gail: Thanks. Hope my audio is synchronous
21:08:48 carolteach4: Hi, all. Sounds like a wonderful show. I looked at http://spacezine.blogspot.com/ mentioned earlier - can anyone participate?
21:08:48 brew7vwp: I'm Michael Brewster, teach English at Port Byron NY, outside Syracuse, Tech Liaison for Seven Valleys WP in Cortland, NY
21:08:50 JennaMcWilliams: got it! yay
21:09:25 SusanEttenheim: go jenna!
21:09:31 SusanEttenheim: welcome brew!
21:09:37 brew7vwp: merci
21:09:43 JennaMcWilliams: ooo oo oo i'm so excited!
21:09:54 SusanEttenheim: all you regulars there! please introduce yourself! where and what do you teach?
21:10:36 SusanEttenheim: jim - welcome how about you? where and what do you teach?
21:10:42 JennaMcWilliams: ok i'm not a regular but i'm in Boston
21:10:49 fred_haas: I teach high school English in Hopkinton, MA; also Boston Writing Project Tech Liaison
21:10:50 JennaMcWilliams: soon to be relocated to indiana
21:10:56 SusanEttenheim: and margie... love all these new "faces tonight"!
21:11:03 Jim: I teach high school English in a school outside San Diego.
21:11:25 carolteach4: Bethany Middle School in CT. I'm currently a technology integration teacher, but I'm a former English teacher, so I've very interested in this show.
21:11:25 matt montagne: I'm Matt Montagne and I teach in a private girls school (6-12) out here in Palo Alto, CA. I am the school's instructional technology specialist
21:11:50 Paul Allison: http://www.umass.edu/english/facProfiles/Herrington.htm
21:11:56 amrowley: @SusanEttenheim I am a teacher @ Winward School in White Plains
21:12:13 JennaMcWilliams: how does this sound as a hashtag for this session: #nwp21stc
21:12:15 SusanEttenheim: I'm responsible for the technology and library in our building and I teach elective classes at Eleanor Roosevelt High School in NYC - public school
21:12:37 amrowley: Its a school that teaches Reading and Writing to LD students. I'm Dir of Tech
21:12:39 SusanEttenheim: cool jenna!
21:13:04 fred_haas: @jenna works for me
21:13:09 SusanEttenheim: welcome am rowly - I went to Mt
21:13:15 SusanEttenheim: vernon high school!
21:13:30 cynthiaN: hi, I'm Cynthia Nearman the writing director at Guilford College--a 4-yr liberal arts college in Greensboro, NC. 
21:13:42 amrowley: We're really close
21:13:56 SusanEttenheim: welcome cynthis and welcome back msmariahn where and what do you teach?
21:14:00 Christina: I'm Christina and I work with the National Writing Project ... I'm based in Philadelphia.
21:14:09 SusanEttenheim: hi christina!
21:14:17 SusanEttenheim: great crowd here!
21:14:27 Christina: I love Charlie's story here. :)
21:14:28 SusanEttenheim: wait did he say 1974 at umass??
21:14:52 SusanEttenheim: oops 84
21:14:54 Christina: PC lab in 1984 at UMass apparently
21:15:00 SusanEttenheim: should have know better!
21:15:16 SusanEttenheim: lol
21:15:18 JennaMcWilliams: mwahaha 84
21:15:35 SusanEttenheim: ah yes jenna can hear now :)
21:15:45 brew7vwp: the "secret" Apple -][ in 1974 ;-)
21:15:45 mh: Hi, this is Michelle from Indiana University, where I teach Teaching of Writing in the English Ed program
21:15:49 Christina: (cat flight ... be back)
21:16:02 SusanEttenheim: jim - chat moving fast tonight - did you introduce yourself?
21:16:25 Jim: Yes, I teach high school English in San Diego
21:16:30 SusanEttenheim: welcome mh!
21:17:10 SusanEttenheim: msmariahn - welcome did we meet you yet?
21:17:27 SusanEttenheim: umm writing teaching and technology - good sounding conference!
21:17:30 Paul Allison: http://www.nwp.org/cs/public/print/nwp_au/1096
21:17:37 Paul Allison: http://www.nwp.org/cs/public/print/nwp_au/455
21:18:21 SusanEttenheim: mfilsecker welcome - did we meet you yet? where and what do you teach?
21:18:28 JennaMcWilliams: michael! hi!
21:18:31 ElyseEA: Having trouble with the chat room. Sorry.
21:18:35 JennaMcWilliams: my peep
21:18:37 SusanEttenheim: questions for our guests? please jump right in!
21:18:59 Christina: back
21:19:01 SusanEttenheim: glad you're back elyse
21:19:07 SusanEttenheim: cats ok?
21:19:11 JennaMcWilliams: i'd like to hear anybody talk about the notion of "technological determinism" discussed in the conclusion
21:19:22 Christina: yes, no harm done
21:19:26 SusanEttenheim: yikes jenna
21:19:39 JennaMcWilliams: well, you ASKED for questions (smiley face emoticon)
21:19:43 ElyseEA: Book can be found at Teaching the New Writing at http://www.nwp.org/cs/public/print/books/teachingnewwriting
21:20:26 JennaMcWilliams: haha sorry
21:20:28 SusanEttenheim: did you hear that jenna?
21:20:34 ElyseEA: shout out for Jenna!
21:20:34 JennaMcWilliams: i'm all TRANSMEDIA
21:20:42 SusanEttenheim: jenna they
21:20:48 JennaMcWilliams: question:
21:20:56 SusanEttenheim: they'd like you to clarify the question!
21:21:03 JennaMcWilliams: it's linked to what kevin said about the idea that just because it's cool doesn't mean we shoudl use it
21:21:07 JennaMcWilliams: can you build on that?
21:21:12 SusanEttenheim: ahhh
21:21:28 JennaMcWilliams: what's the connection between the practices supported by technologies and how technologies direct our practices?
21:21:42 Jim: I've always felt that technology was more of an answer looking for a question
21:21:58 JennaMcWilliams: lulz i didn't mean to throw a hardball at the outset
21:22:24 SusanEttenheim: who wants to follow up what jenna's thinking?
21:22:34 JennaMcWilliams: gah now i'm all bashful
21:22:34 SusanEttenheim: real life examples please?
21:22:38 JennaMcWilliams: i'm just gonna sit over here
21:22:47 SusanEttenheim: not here - not possible!
21:22:48 JennaMcWilliams: oh, well, i was thinking about wikipedia
21:23:03 brew7vwp: I wonder why so many administrators are so wowwed by tech, but not to "writing"
21:23:04 fred_haas: Technology may not be a driving force but often using a tool can reveal unforseen possibilities never before considered, no?
21:23:10 matt montagne: Is it important for students to learn how to persuade, tell a story, convey a message in mixed media just like it has been imporant for them to know how to do this in a text-based essay?? Or , will they learn this on their own if we give them the foundation in tradtional literacies.
21:23:11 JennaMcWilliams: having wikipedia as the force it is means that we EXPECT to be able to contribute our knowledge to dictionaries / online encyclopedia
21:23:55 fred_haas: Right on Anne. SO is a pencil!
21:24:25 brew7vwp: nice question, matt... writing as a foundation is my view
21:24:43 JennaMcWilliams: haha i feel like such a groupie
21:24:44 amrowley: Because our students are used to seeing stories in a multimedia world they would want to create in that world
21:24:56 JennaMcWilliams: i'm like, can you talk about the point you make at the bottom of page 2?
21:25:19 amrowley: We still need to spend time with the basics and not throw the baby out with the bath water
21:25:29 brew7vwp: jenna, do you have some of the early galleys? ;-)
21:26:14 ElyseEA: I think that the notion of structuration is the more subtle and interactive notion; better than determinism.
21:26:22 JennaMcWilliams: just the pirated copies i bought off of ebay. :p
21:26:29 SusanEttenheim: jenna - lol we don't all have the book in front of us! can you give us a quote?
21:26:58 SusanEttenheim: hi michelle! welcome! where and what do you teach? please introduce yourself!
21:27:22 JennaMcWilliams: "teachers are caught in this conflict, for their students' sake wanting to respond to the changes taking place in this thing called writing, and at the same time wanting their students to do well on the 19th century school essay called for on standardized tests."
21:27:22 ElyseEA: Yes, Keep it Real is the show's motto.  Must remember that.
21:27:47 matt montagne: @jenna...is that a quote from the book??
21:27:52 JennaMcWilliams: yup
21:28:14 matt montagne: @jenna...that quote really is the crux of where we are at
21:28:17 brew7vwp: reminds me of Kathleen Yancey, "Writing in the 21st Century"
21:29:06 matt montagne: I think we all need to be given license to tinker, player, explore and innovate in the classroom with all sorts of learning objects (digital and non-digital, human and non-human)
21:29:27 amrowley: agreed. I believe that the writing should be driven by the learning and not by the machine.
21:29:35 SusanEttenheim: what makes you think that we're not matt?
21:29:51 fred_haas: @Jenna - Just did a recent international project where the students made great short videos that got a lot of recognition. A colleague said this was really great, I agreed. Yet it will not necessarily help them pass the MCAS - Argh!
21:30:15 SusanEttenheim: what makes you think it won't fred?
21:30:17 amrowley: @matt unfortunately in some schools everything is so scripted you do not have time or the luxery to experiment
21:30:21 brew7vwp: matt, I'm lucky in that my principal allows me much leeway, since he's a huge proponent of engagement
21:30:43 JennaMcWilliams: @fred_haas: you must be familiar with the effort to incorporate "21st century skills" into the mcas
21:30:50 matt montagne: @susan...many teachers don't feel they have license to innovate and tinker due to many different constraints (grades, texts, departments, pressure in schools for conformitity and homogeneity, etc)
21:31:01 JennaMcWilliams: @fred_haas mainly by making kids write on computers
21:31:12 matt montagne: @susan...the AP classes don't allow exploratory learning either...
21:31:37 amrowley: Dealing with LD students it is critical that we scaffold the learning, but we can fall into such a structured class that make it difficult to deviate.
21:31:41 fred_haas: @Susan - They definitely learn and the are applicable skills but the videos are far more free form and the tests are so formulaic
21:31:49 SusanEttenheim: playing devil's advocate a little but sometimes I think we hold ourselves back
21:31:51 SusanEttenheim: too
21:32:06 matt montagne: Google search picks up this chat room big time...just an fyi there
21:32:29 amrowley: @Susan no the administrators do. I have seen observations that quell that spark very quickly.
21:32:37 SusanEttenheim: what do you mean matt?
21:32:43 brew7vwp: I don't know, matt, I had to write my first AP L&C curriculum and I was amazed at how much "visual literacy" was called for- what better way to explore?
21:32:47 JennaMcWilliams: shout out to the bloomington crew
21:32:51 fred_haas: @Jenna - The efforts seem somewhat shallow and superficial. Otehrwise, it would make the actual scoring and assessment a whole lot more complicated
21:33:03 SusanEttenheim: humm ok amrowley
21:33:05 matt montagne: @susan...I totally, totally agree...for example, often times we use parents as an excuse for not innovating..."I can't do that because the parents will complain, not like it, etc" But I've often times found that parents clamor for innovation in the classroom
21:33:12 SusanEttenheim: gosh that's sad
21:33:27 JennaMcWilliams: @fred i wrote about this on my blog; will send u link if you're interested
21:33:48 JennaMcWilliams: (shameless self promotion)
21:33:49 SusanEttenheim: link here please jenna - url?
21:34:03 matt montagne: @susan...I was just talking about how the content of the chat, when posted with the audio, is indexed by google
21:34:17 fred_haas: @Jenna - I actually picked up on your blog after the New Media Literacies Conference, but would love the link
21:34:18 gail: The tools are there for the students to communicate their own thoughts and ideas in a variety of ways. Having a variety can awaken the writer inside.
21:34:19 SusanEttenheim: don't you think a bored student in class will do just as poorly on standardized tests?
21:34:26 SusanEttenheim: ahhh
21:34:28 JennaMcWilliams: ok ok ok haha i can't help myself
21:34:30 michelle: Can you discuss these issues (e.g., teaching new writing, gap between new media literacies and standardized tests) as equity issues?
21:34:30 JennaMcWilliams: "teachers are caught in this conflict, for their students' sake wanting to respond to the changes taking place in this thing called writing, and at the same time wanting their students to do well on the 19th century school essay called for on standardized tests."
21:34:32 JennaMcWilliams: oops
21:35:09 JennaMcWilliams: http://jennamcwilliams.blogspot.com/2009/05/thank-goodness-boston-globe-...
21:35:49 JennaMcWilliams: i like how glenn bledsoe differentiates assessment from evaluation
21:35:55 JennaMcWilliams: in the book
21:36:14 SusanEttenheim: thank you jenna!
21:36:25 matt montagne: @brew...I'm glad you're finding the chance to teach visual literacy in the context of your AP class. But most folks don't do that I have a hnuch. I was just talking with our AP bio teacher who was sharing about the 12 required labs she had to do. She was lamenting about how lacking in authenticy the labs were and that only 2 really worked.
21:37:11 Christina: I think several of them talk about assessment seperate from evaluation ... even in the self-assessment the students do to revise, etc.
21:37:23 SusanEttenheim: msmariahn - where and what do you teach?
21:37:56 brew7vwp: yeah, unfortunately, across all classes there's such a wide range of reqs
21:38:12 cynthiaN: How does the link b/t nationally mandated HS curricula & technologies used for standardized testing complicate the conversation (on-going) about how HS & FYC teachers need to work together to make sure that students are prepared for college writing?  I worry that this means FYC teachers/programs will be encouraged to articulate outcomes & practice pedagogies that are more attentive to standardized assessment technologies than I'd like.
21:38:19 Christina: I was thinking about the chapter by Dawn where the kids were really developing their speech through recording and podcasting.
21:38:23 fred_haas: Has anyone ever seen the videos for Billy Collins poems @ http://www.bcactionpoet.org/
21:39:00 brew7vwp: what's interesting is that "Fear of Testing" is the first thing that came up in our Summer Institute, and now is long forgotten
21:39:08 carolteach4: Does being prepared for the exam prepare the students for their spot in the workplace of the 21st century? Often, it's far from the same.
21:40:11 JennaMcWilliams: what interests me is that we value, very strongly, access to what we call "new media literacy"...yet we get nervous about that term "technological determinism"
21:40:23 JennaMcWilliams: aren't we saying that new media is defining what "literacy" means?
21:40:26 matt montagne: Traditional School valued intelligences are a barrier to innovation as well.
21:40:34 JennaMcWilliams: and isn't that essentially saying that the technologies determine practice?
21:40:37 JennaMcWilliams: hi, dan!
21:40:38 SusanEttenheim: Hi dan
21:41:20 brew7vwp: it will, jenna, unless we can reach enough influential teachers... this book is a step int he right direction
21:41:27 JennaMcWilliams: dan, are you getting sound?
21:41:37 SusanEttenheim: dan please introduce yourself where and what do you teach?
21:41:44 cynthiaN: Have y'all seen this amazing DFW wiki created by Kathleen Fitzgerald's adv students at Pomona College?  How do I learn to do this?  http://machines.pomona.edu/dfwwiki
21:41:45 JennaMcWilliams: susan, if that was you, you're kinda hard to hear
21:42:19 SusanEttenheim: ok not sure but thanks jenna - I'll check
21:42:19 gail: Sure do
21:42:32 amrowley: Its true w/o PD we can't move forward.
21:42:49 JennaMcWilliams: ooh ooh ooh there's a great quote about professional devo in the last chap of the book!
21:43:02 SusanEttenheim: let's hear it jenna!
21:43:07 brew7vwp: Kevin is right, lots of time & handholding is needed to kick things off, and then continued time
21:43:12 JennaMcWilliams: ok ok ok hold on
21:43:14 amrowley: Boy you really did your homework and read the book.
21:43:25 fred_haas: A common hear from colleagues that when the district does do technology PD that the presenters start talking over everyone's head inside 5 mins.
21:43:27 dan hickey: hi everybody, this must be the backchannel. I am a faculty member at IU and teach learning sciences and head a team and have been working with project new media liteacies
21:43:36 matt montagne: The existing school calendar really doesn't support a PD, prep time model that we need...perhaps the model worked back in the day, but its weaknesses have been exposed in an era where we need to regularly be ramping up our skills
21:43:44 JennaMcWilliams: @dan hickey is my sensei.
21:43:51 JennaMcWilliams: "we should not expect that new or veteran teachers will instantly adopt a technology-rich set of classroom practices centered on technology. The usual kind of staff development--the one-shot training workshop mandated by the principal or superintendent--will not produce the desired effect, or perhaps any effect at all. Teachers will bring technology into their classroom practice gradually, over time, and at different rates, with long-term help from colleagues and from professional networks like BreadNet and the National Writing Project."
21:43:56 brew7vwp: I'm still on Peter Kittle's chapter, haven't finished yet
21:44:20 JennaMcWilliams: oh because just BEFORE that quote, the editors write:
21:44:34 JennaMcWilliams: "T]he change we are seeing in these chapters is real, but it is gradual, incremental, an extension of and addition to what has come before. This observation has important consequences for preservice and inservice teacher training in technology."
21:44:57 matt montagne: @fred...traditional PD will aloways do that...that is the beauty of social, online learning...the PD can be personalized to learning styles in a way that was never possible...But, most people aren't versed in learning in this manner.
21:45:58 gail: Technology has greatly expanded our own professional learning communities/networks
21:46:00 fred_haas: @Matt couldn't agree more. I am actually trying to get a bit more involved at my school to help address some of this
21:46:39 michelle: I'm also curious to hear more about how  teachers are assessing students' multimodal writing--what is "good writing" now?
21:46:49 carolteach4: Our school is working in the right direction. We are using Google apps for collaboration and project production. The eight graders had a whole week of project-based learning as they created short videos around the topic of the American Revolution. We have not as yet been able set up a connection with students in other schools, and I hope to make contact with another middle-school teacher through this forum.
21:46:53 amrowley: But if you are not comfortable with technology, how can you introduce them to the idea of social online learning?  Also online learning is not considered real learning by some. I am slowly introducing people to the social learning aspect
21:47:22 gail: @michelle I think the book they have written will give you many of those rubrics
21:47:28 matt montagne: @michelle...wow, you ask a great question. How can we assess something we are not skilled at creating ourselves (eg-multi modal/media ) writing
21:47:28 brew7vwp: @michelle, I rely heavily on peer-critiquing... kids respond to good stuff well
21:47:33 carolteach4: These conversations are great professional development, and I've been advertising it to all the staff, but no one seems to have the time.
21:47:35 Christina: Just fyi about the Bread Loaf Teacher Network -- http://www.middlebury.edu/academics/blse/breadnet/ ... and the NWP -- http://www.nwp.org.
21:47:55 JennaMcWilliams: @christina is that the same breadloaf that has the writer's conf?
21:48:57 matt montagne: I find that most rubrics for evaluating multi-modal writing touch on things like , " The piece had an intro/outrro" "The piece was within the required time constraints" etc...I'm not so sure rubrics cut it for evaluating these pieces...
21:48:59 SusanEttenheim: thanks christina
21:49:03 JennaMcWilliams: seems like new paul's suggesting that writing is no longer this "separate" thing--
21:49:29 matt montagne: Say a student creates a viral video on YouTube that gets 10 million views...but the teacher gave it a 3/5 on the rubric. Does the rubric matter??
21:49:41 JennaMcWilliams: oo deb brandt gave a talk at ncte last year that said that we're in a 2nd wave of mass literacy focused on writing instead of reading as the key type of literacy
21:49:45 brew7vwp: agreed- I use tech as a "trick" to invite more writing from my kids
21:49:49 dan hickey: @matt key point
21:50:00 Christina: @jenna it's a master's program at Middlebury (english ed)
21:50:45 brew7vwp: @jenna, I try to tell my colleagues this, but they're stuck in the cult of the book
21:50:52 amrowley: msmariahn says she cant post to the chat
21:51:06 JennaMcWilliams: brandt said today, people learn how to write by writing
21:51:11 JennaMcWilliams: instead of learning how to write by reading
21:51:35 dan hickey: @matt however, you are focusing on the summative functions of assessment.  If it is a good rubric in just might help this stellar student AND his classmates ponder the success in productives ways.  In that sense the rubric helps
21:51:41 michelle: @matt--I agree, and how do we provide feedback when the audience may not  be us? how do we challenge/push students forward to do even better work? (and support them in doing it?)
21:51:43 JennaMcWilliams: mwahahahaha the unit where they do research
21:51:46 fred_haas: Still, a lot of new media is really just repackaged old media that's production has been democratized. How is a podcast really different than radio?
21:51:53 JennaMcWilliams: lol
21:51:55 SusanEttenheim: ah thank you but I bet we can help her she private messaged me before so she should be abl eto post here
21:52:12 brew7vwp: they don't teach English, they teach "this novel" or "that novel"
21:52:24 fred_haas: Meaning most podcasts are really just radio-like packages
21:52:24 JennaMcWilliams: if anybody here blogs about these issuues, can you link me to your blog?
21:52:27 JennaMcWilliams: PLEEEEEEZ
21:52:32 amrowley: Its true by writing you an taking what you have learned and create something new. To write successfully you have to understand, ask questions and come to conclusions.
21:52:38 carolteach4: Podcast allows anyone to participate. Only select individuals had access to broadcasting through radio.
21:52:50 matt montagne: @dan...nice point @michell-more good questions to consider there...
21:53:02 amrowley: from [msmariahn] The technology has also made plagerism very easy.
21:53:23 amrowley: that was from msmariahn
21:53:44 gail: In the past month, I have started to hear teachers talking about Facebook.
21:53:44 SusanEttenheim: thank you
21:53:44 JennaMcWilliams: @amrowley: does this mean we need to rethink how we define "plagiarism"?
21:53:58 JennaMcWilliams: ooh, actually, can i pose that to question to the speakers?
21:54:04 fred_haas: In a the age of Google how has the nature of research by students changing?
21:54:05 matt montagne: @am...it also has made plagarism detection easier as well...and has brought into question what plagarism is...is remixing and creating a viral YouTube pplagirism??
21:54:27 amrowley: true.  Even with Rap or Hip Hop they were taking music already created and remixed it and created something new.
21:55:00 Christina: I wanted to say something about Daw/Troy's chapter ... it feels significant how much the kids revised and thought differently about their work with the new audience for that work and the way that folks could engage (studnets working down the hallway could grab  the URL form the poster and login and listen, parents, classmaters, etc.)
21:55:07 matt montagne: The remix culture is a culture of building off each other's work and thinking...that has not typically been something that has been permitted in schools. I think this has been definid as plagarism as schools
21:55:30 gail: @Kevin, I wish I could post the link to Boolean's Book Report. Can you
21:55:47 carolteach4: @Matt - absolutely. It's a whole new mind set now.
21:55:52 amrowley: @matt true. But this is the world they live in.  They remix music, movies, pictures, ideas.
21:55:57 JennaMcWilliams: we're kinda rethinking the notion of "authorship"--as a culture
21:56:03 matt montagne: I can't type...seriously, my spelling isn't this bad :)
21:56:08 Jim: I'm in the middle of trying to switch our English Dept from a purely literature based focus to more of an expository reading and writing focus for students other than AP, IB, or Honors. This discussion is very interesting but a good 5 - 6 years down the road for us. We just don't have the technology at school and neither do the students have it at home to even flirt with the New Writing. Texting on cell phones is their total focus.
21:56:27 fred_haas: Project based learning is almost always teh bedrock upon which successful technology efforts are built
21:56:34 amrowley:  from msmariahn: I am wondering if education is going back to the combination of speaking, writing and logic
21:56:56 JennaMcWilliams: recently, henry jenkins told me that argument is moving back toward what we traditionally think of as classical rhetoric
21:57:09 JennaMcWilliams: vs. expository argument
21:57:17 JennaMcWilliams: his point is that we argue with the anticipation of a response
21:57:22 JennaMcWilliams: which is like classical debate
21:57:26 SusanEttenheim: jim say more
21:57:43 amrowley: Think about science if scientists did not build on the works of others, how could we have made the advances we did?
21:57:47 fred_haas: @Jim I hear you. It can be a bloody battle; a lot of literature stallwarts
21:58:00 brew7vwp: @christina- yes, the pressure of a real audience is huge
21:58:09 Jim: They text among themselves but not for classwork.
21:58:17 carolteach4: It also gives teachers the tools to build things. I have an old-fashioned teacher started on building a website for his students using Google Sites, and he raves about how easy it is to gather resources and immediately post them on his site for his kids to use. He teaches earth science and uses tons of web resources.
21:58:22 matt montagne: @amrowley...trudat
21:58:33 JennaMcWilliams: ok so if we say we're not technological determinists, can we teach the literacies WITHOUT the technologies? ...or...
21:59:17 fred_haas: @Jenna a new look at classical rhetoric is almost necessary now, as even the "rhetorics" of the individual mediums differ to more or less degrees
21:59:23 JennaMcWilliams: i wonder if it makes sense we're going BACK to something--seems like we're moving TOWARD something new that we can't quite grasp yet
21:59:35 JennaMcWilliams: ^to say this
21:59:46 SusanEttenheim: jenna i meant way back... like socrates
22:00:00 JennaMcWilliams: we know that whatever happens as a result of all this stuff, it's gonna be different from anything, ever, at any time in human history, right?
22:00:15 JennaMcWilliams: haha "stuff"
22:00:18 SusanEttenheim: yes indeed
22:00:21 brew7vwp: @jenna, for me it's more the "virtual" immediacy which replicates the proverbial town square
22:00:48 brew7vwp: learning as collaborative vs. book-driven
22:00:50 carolteach4: Think of the thousands of students who wrote to President Obama  inspired by the Speak-Up survey. They not only wrote but made videos. That would not have happened without the ease of technology to deliver their commentary.
22:00:55 JennaMcWilliams: ::still waiting for links to participants' blogs::
22:01:21 brew7vwp: twitter.com/@brew7vwp
22:01:25 matt montagne: I think we gotta look long and hard at schoool allocations...why are we still spending $$$$$$$ annually on textbooks, even in poor districts, when we could be giving students access to powerful connective technologies
22:01:49 amrowley: The technology, paper, pen, whatever it is still about the thinking! Have you taken what you have learned and now relay you ideas to an audience.
22:01:57 JennaMcWilliams: hahaha
22:02:41 fred_haas: In the beginning was the word - Man cannot realize himself without language - N. Scott Momaday
22:02:43 JennaMcWilliams: so, for example, the invention of the telegraph shaped hemingway's writing
22:02:46 Christina: do you all have sound?
22:02:53 brew7vwp: I'm a fictionist who can't keep a journal much less a blog
22:02:53 matt montagne: so even if we do move to a place where collaborative knowledge construction in our schools happens regularly and is accepted, how will it be evaluated??
22:03:05 brew7vwp: 5 years is not acceptable, really
22:03:05 JennaMcWilliams: fictionists can keep blog
22:03:14 JennaMcWilliams: @brew you could keep a FICTIONAL blog
22:03:26 matt montagne: @brew...I'm with you... 5 years is not acceptable
22:03:37 brew7vwp: I do, it's my novels :p
22:03:45 Jim: Have you heard about California's current debt?:) :) :)
22:03:45 JennaMcWilliams: <---nerd
22:03:46 gail: @Christina, I clicked on the UStream box at the left
22:03:54 gail: make that right
22:03:55 Christina: got it back
22:04:17 JennaMcWilliams: link lin k link link link to what's up
22:04:21 JennaMcWilliams: i need to SEE it
22:04:23 Christina: youthvoices.net
22:04:28 JennaMcWilliams: thank you!
22:05:13 brew7vwp: I am in my 3rd year of pushing expository writing and I am seeing only a dribble of nonfiction writing across the curriculum
22:05:15 fred_haas: @Jenna - I am terribly irregular and will likely change the url in the near future but http://rogueteacher.edublogs.org/
22:05:38 matt montagne: great show, all
22:05:42 JennaMcWilliams: thanks @fre!
22:05:45 JennaMcWilliams: ^d
22:05:47 amrowley: OK getting past my bedtime 5:30 a.m. is way too early!
22:05:49 matt montagne: really enjoyed this!
22:05:52 brew7vwp: good thing there's 2 more
22:05:57 SusanEttenheim: thanks for joining us everyone!
22:06:05 amrowley: Great show. I really got a lot out of this.
22:06:18 fred_haas: Can't wait to get my hands on the book - Great show
22:06:19 brew7vwp: thanks to everyone
22:06:23 amrowley: Also great conversations.
22:06:32 dan hickey: thanks!
22:06:50 Jim: @brew7 - we have the beginnings of a state-wide push in this direction and we now have binders of this info email me [email protected]
22:06:56 JennaMcWilliams: embarrassed emoticon
22:07:00 brew7vwp: thanks, jim
22:07:18 SusanEttenheim: christina this was great!
22:07:18 JennaMcWilliams: i feel a litle too much like hermione
22:07:25 matt montagne: This is a great way to learn...no question about it.
22:07:28 brew7vwp: my site director, David Franke, got me the book to write a review
22:07:28 michelle: thank you!
22:07:35 Christina: You can buy the book here: http://www.nwp.org/cs/public/print/doc/resources/book_store.csp
22:07:41 SusanEttenheim: remember everyone to visit other shows at edtechtalk.com!
22:07:44 matt montagne: Is the book available on Kindle??
22:07:51 Paul Allison: http://www.nwp.org/cs/public/print/books/teachingnewwriting
22:08:13 matt montagne: I think it would be only appropriate if it were available as an eBook of some type
22:08:24 brew7vwp: the irony, matt
22:08:45 brew7vwp: I want a completely annotatable online version
22:08:56 JennaMcWilliams: ooo me too
22:09:02 Christina: I'll pass that on!
22:09:10 Christina: (not now available)
22:09:24 matt montagne: @brew...many educational technology related books are not available online...it is kinda ironic :-)
22:09:34 Christina: upcoming shows: http://www.nwp.org/cs/public/print/events/420
22:09:38 JennaMcWilliams: @matt they're all afraid of plagiarism!
22:09:51 matt montagne: @Jenna LOL!!!!
22:10:01 Christina: And, http://www.nwp.org/cs/public/print/events/421
22:10:14 JennaMcWilliams: hahaha lulz
22:10:19 brew7vwp: we know what we want
22:10:19 matt montagne: I like the tool that the 2009 Horizon report was released on...the tool allows commenting in the text, etc
22:10:21 Christina: Yes, some chapter authors are working on online companion pieces ...
22:10:29 JennaMcWilliams: ok night night
22:10:29 fred_haas: Thanks all good night
22:10:32 Jim: Thanks
22:10:40 matt montagne: clap, clap, clap!!!
22:10:45 Christina: we'll be publishing them on the NWP Digital Is website (still under construction)
22:10:50 matt montagne: fantastic show!!!
22:11:02 brew7vwp: @christina, sounds great
22:11:09 cynthiaN: thanks y'all
22:11:17 carolteach4: EdTechTalk - greatest free professional development ever
22:11:39 SusanEttenheim: thanks everyone!
22:11:49 Kevin Hodgson: Good night
22:11:58 Christina: thanks everyone. night
22:12:12 matt montagne: @carolteach...agree with you on EdtechTalk