CCK 08 - Week#8 Discussion

Connectivism and Connective Knowledge Online Course
Week#8 Discussion
October 31, 2008

  09:52 coarsesalt : hey folks...
 09:53 coarsesalt : we're gonna start on time today!
 09:54 coarsesalt : at least... so says me :)
 09:55 jpachon : hi
 09:56 coarsesalt : hey
 09:58 LisaMLane : are they in a mebeam room?
 09:59 coarsesalt : should be streaming in ustream
 09:59 coarsesalt : the video that is
 10:00 LisaMLane : what technology are we seeing that can go from one video to another?
 10:01 ustreamer-41185 : I'm using Webcammax
 10:01 ustreamer-41185 :
 10:02 jennymackness : It's Ok Stephen - we know what you look like!
 10:03 ustreamer-78623 : maybe the blue boxes are recycling their video feed?
 10:03 LisaMLane : this is very cool
 10:04 jennymackness : @ Lisa In what way cool?
 10:04 LisaMLane : seeing multiple video feeds
 10:04 jennymackness : If we could!
 10:05 LisaMLane : if I turn on my webcam, do I have power?
 10:05 LisaMLane : now they need name tags
 10:06 anitsirk : hello are we early today or am i on a different time?
 10:06 jennymackness : Nice voice Dave
 10:06 wdrexler : Hi All.
 10:06 jpachon : happy hallowen...i see a black image..
 10:06 jpachon : and blue
 10:06 anitsirk : i see george
 10:07 jennymackness : Yes I think it did distract the discussion
 10:07 LisaMLane : we find bright shiny things distracting
 10:08 coarsesalt : post your questions please :)
 10:09 jennymackness : Please could someone distinguish between control, authority and pwere
 10:10 LisaMLane : an emotional response will always come first
 10:10 jon_k : Stephen - did you think that the experiment was useful in hindsight? What would you have done if you feel it wasn't as effective as it could've been?
 10:11 wdrexler : I'm very interested in differentiating between perceived and actual power.  How does this impact behavior in a learning network?
 10:11 jennymackness : LOL
 10:11 anitsirk : stephen is pretty dark today
 10:12 LisaMLane : we're gonna wrest it back as quickly as possible
 10:12 jon_k : Do you feel that this move would have a long-lasting effect on bringing in people who were lurkers?
 10:12 LisaMLane : seeing black screen, making metaphors
 10:12 jennymackness : What do Stephen and George think about power in children's classrooms
 10:12 jon_k : and was that the purpose?
 10:13 coarsesalt : @jon_k i doubt it
 10:13 ustreamer-41185 : If any lurkers would like to make their video presence felt, you can go to
 10:13 jon_k : but there was no depth to the conversations in moodle
 10:13 jon_k : @coarsesalt - that's what I thought too
 10:14 LisaMLane : I have gotten the impression that overall participation has declined a lot -- is that correct?
 10:15 ustreamer-91238 : Jo Ann: Hi Stephen
 10:16 LisaMLane : there's Stephen, we have hair power now
 10:16 anitsirk : oh oh. stephen's video works and the video stream freaks out and breaks up
 10:16 coarsesalt : @Lisa yup. i would say that that is fair
 10:16 ustreamer-66891 : this is the first time I really attend something of cck08 thanks to twitter :) (I do read stuff of the course)
 10:16 LisaMLane : @coarsesalt I wonder about why
 10:17 jon_k : @lisa it could be that enthusiasm has worn off, and people who are not in it for credit have no carrot to continue
 10:17 LisaMLane : @jon_k I'm wondering if anyone left due to a feeling of loss of control
 10:17 jennymackness : I'm not in for credit and I'm still here!
 10:18 coarsesalt : CREDIT --> jennymackness
 10:18 jennymackness : @ Lisa Loss of control over time
 10:18 jon_k : entropic decay? hahaha
 10:19 LisaMLane : @jenny, that too, but some said they were lonely
 10:19 ustreamer-91238 : Jo Ann: I think there is plenty of control for the course, but there are lots of other demands external to the course and my presence in other space and time are competing for my attention.
 10:19 anitsirk : i don't take CCK08 for credit, but my participation has declined tremendously as the course has to take the backseat to my work stuff etc. though i try to do the readings and the live sessions
 10:19 jennymackness : @Lisa - yes - quality of connection
 10:20 jon_k : @stephen is that authority or responsibility?
 10:20 LisaMLane : @jenny has there been some kind of failure of connection quality, or just RL distractions?
 10:20 anitsirk : live session will be difficult in coming weeks as i often have to work during the elluminate sessions
 10:20 ustreamer-98832 : I came to believe that if the course was shorter, with less content, ther would not have been massive drop out
 10:20 jennymackness : @Lisa - I think quality 
 10:21 anitsirk : does ustream breaks up for you too?
 10:21 coarsesalt : QUESTIONS?
 10:21 ustreamer-91238 : Jo Ann: my ustream is good
 10:21 LisaMLane : @98832 yes, a lot was discussed in the first few weeks, all at once
 10:21 ustreamer-98832 : In a form of short courses for example. The first week introductions reflect that people were really enthusiastic, but also busy
 10:23 coarsesalt : that's stupid :)
 10:23 jennymackness : It depends on how educators perceive themselves
 10:23 ustreamer-91238 : Jo Ann: I have a sense that there is functionally helpful aurthority through the roles educator instructors can play -- but there is also restricting others through authority -- good debate here
 10:25 LisaMLane : as educators, should our goal be serving the needs of the learner or the needs of society?
 10:25 jon_k : stakeholders have a vested interest in the system
 10:25 ustreamer-66891 : stakeholder analysis versus social benefit analysis... good stuff
 10:25 ustreamer-91238 : Jo Ann: good question Lisa
 10:25 jennymackness : @Lisa - it has to be both
 10:26 jennymackness : Oh dear its all the fault of the British :)
 10:26 gsiemens : the development of land-grant universities alos launched that opportunitiy
 10:26 ustreamer-91238 : Jo Ann: Complex Shapings in isolated and/or connected communities
 10:26 gsiemens : dave said regularize
 10:26 LisaMLane : how does open access affect our goals?
 10:27 jon_k : perhaps the better word is regulate!
 10:27 jennymackness : @Lisa - great question
 10:27 ustreamer-91238 : Jo Ann: I think the teachers made it a "socializing" process
 10:28 LisaMLane : but her unhappiness isn't systemic, it's personal
 10:28 LisaMLane : based on the personality of her teacher
 10:29 jon_k : it might be systemic? If that teacher has a wider effect than just the one class
 10:29 gsiemens : I like stakeholders
 10:29 gsiemens : personal agency
 10:29 ustreamer-8925 : ctscho: @lisa  once you start asking about the teacher, you start questioning the whole system 
 10:29 gsiemens : we don't realize that our voice counts
 10:30 LisaMLane : @ctscho I get that, but think personality is significant
 10:30 gsiemens : organizations and structures permit individuals to silence their voice
 10:30 ustreamer-91238 : Jo Ann: sorry to throw this in -- but where does money come into this picture -- with what gets supported "as okay" 
 10:31 gsiemens : it may just be human nature, Stephen
 10:31 LisaMLane : we have to have schools as a deterrent to independent learning ...
 10:32 jennymackness : @Lisa Schools can promote independent learning
 10:32 LisaMLane : @jenny indeed they can! do they do it to help the learner or the society?
 10:33 jennymackness : Both
 10:33 LisaMLane : what happens when those goals are in opposition?
 10:33 jennymackness : such as?
 10:33 LisaMLane : our local school banned kids from wearing costumes today
 10:34 ustreamer-91238 : Jo Ann: is independent learning percieved as potentially dangerous -- or less effective for society -- and like Lisa says -- schoold can promot independent learning -- but I would add that I experience some given parameters to the independent -- more interdependent learning.
 10:34 jennymackness : @ Lisa in the interests of society?
 10:35 LisaMLane : @jenny when these social objectives promote conformity rather than independence
 10:35 LisaMLane : I do not know what the school was trying to prevent
 10:35 LisaMLane : but I applauded the jr high kids who came to school today in bedroom slippers
 10:35 wdrexler : empowerment
 10:35 LisaMLane : defiance, but not really a "costume"
 10:35 jennymackness : Even children can exercise choice
 10:36 ustreamer-91238 : Jo Ann: Marks may be high if the instructor agrees, and not otherwise (perhaps -- although one hopes not).
 10:36 LisaMLane : wow, now I wonder how I grew up without having that expectation -- I've never been a passive learner
 10:37 ustreamer-91238 : Jo Ann: How did you get that way Lisa?
 10:37 wdrexler : @Lisa You've never walked into a mandatory PD session with a passive frame of mind?  Boy, I have.
 10:37 LisaMLane : @wendy I either make it work for me or tune out and do something else
 10:37 coarsesalt : I'm a mandatory session leads worse nightmare
 10:38 LisaMLane : @Jo Ann parental support for independence maybe
 10:38 wdrexler : Isn't tuning out and doing something else passive aggressive?  HA!
 10:38 LisaMLane : @wendy yup!
 10:38 wdrexler : :)
 10:38 ustreamer-91238 : Jo Ann: I think when I'm doing the thinking that I'm doing because people -- like significant others have helped shape me
 10:39 wdrexler : Even if they don't actually take away personal control, they certainly don't encourage it.
 10:39 ustreamer-91238 : Jo Ann: Thanks Lisa -- parents do influence a lot -- especially when I consider my day to day work as a psychologist
 10:39 LisaMLane : the penalties for asserting such power include public humiliation, used at schools here
 10:40 jennymackness : LOL
 10:40 LisaMLane : c'mon Stephen, you wanted us to yell and we did -- didn't want to disappoint you! :)
 10:41 LisaMLane : my parents modeled it for me
 10:41 jennymackness : Yes - as Stepehen has said - model and demonstrate
 10:41 wdrexler : I hate when my day job gets in the way of my learning.  :)  Gotta go teach.  Great discussion!  Happy Halloween and enjoy your weekend.
 10:41 LisaMLane : @jenny exactly
 10:41 coarsesalt : @Lisa my parents are even more pigheaded than i am
 10:42 ustreamer-91238 : Jo Ann: Skill sets can be learned -- but who teaches them. On my first online course I had a huge learning curve. Perhaps some had huge learning curves -- and that takes time and skill sets.
 10:43 jennymackness : Easier to do when not for credit!
 10:43 LisaMLane : the point is here is a resource, so use it, duh
 10:43 jon_k : @Jo-Ann - I think people teach themselves those skills
 10:43 LisaMLane : @Jo Ann, so following modeling, you should be a student in one first, yes?
 10:44 ustreamer-91238 : Jo Ann: I would have loved to have know how to build up more gradually -- but for many things like this -- I just dive in -- with my skill of asking questions and finding resource people.
 10:44 LisaMLane : so you lose a few...
 10:45 ustreamer-91238 : JoAnn: The laws of survival -- 1) stop myself from panicking and breath -- I'm still alive
 10:45 ustreamer-8925 : @lisa But if it;s something like learning, it's not a finite chance- you can try again
 10:46 LisaMLane : that's why I want to get into why so many people have left the course 10:46 LisaMLane : that's why I want to get into why so many people have left the course
 10:46 jennymackness : Must be something to do with what you say
 10:46 jennymackness : @Lisa - all online courses in my experience lose people
 10:47 anitsirk : all courses - also f2f lose people
 10:47 ustreamer-91238 : Jo Ann: personal agency -- is worth learning - was it a subtext?
 10:47 LisaMLane : but this one is voluntary,  many were so excited
 10:47 LisaMLane : don't you need authority to have the opportunity to model?
 10:47 ustreamer-8925 : Traditional education says sstart here, stop now. Anyone can go back to this and revisit it-- they're not nec. "lost" to themselves-- just to this particular temporal element
 10:48 ustreamer-87687 : Thinking about course content, e.g., biological taxonomy vs. knowledge management
 10:48 anitsirk : @lisa but then real life caught up. the 1st two weeks were before the semester started for me -> had a bit more time
 10:48 SasaSi :  i don't think people have left... i think they just switched to lurking... (I have)
 10:48 ustreamer-91238 : Jo Ann: I lurk in 1/2 this course
 10:49 jon_k : the only way to know why people leave/stop is to have an exit survey of some sort
 10:49 coarsesalt : wow.
 10:50 LisaMLane : it would be so nice to talk more about cognitive connectivism
 10:50 anitsirk : i have heard that some people stopped following moodle due to the tone in some discussions. i think seeing what's going on on the blogs in terms of comments is difficult because they are not aggregated like the posts in the daily
 10:50 ustreamer-91238 : Jo Ann: Pattern of connectiveness -- not just in the brain -- but in the whole body (movement therapist here)
 10:50 jon_k : I personally think lurking = leaving as you're not contributing to the discussion
 10:50 LisaMLane : @jon_k I don't, but I think many have left completely
 10:51 LisaMLane : and I think that some did because they didn't want the control
 10:51 anitsirk : maybe some who had signed up have never actually started
 10:51 SasaSi : I don't think lurking is the same as leaving
 10:51 jon_k : the course was set up to be not only learning from Stephen/George, but from each other
 10:51 LisaMLane : @SasaSi me neither, lurking is valid
 10:52 LisaMLane : this connects: what do we do when learners won't take control?
 10:52 jennymackness : How would avoiding authority work in the army?
 10:52 jon_k : @jenny it won't
 10:52 LisaMLane : @jenny the goal there is conformity
 10:52 ustreamer-91238 : Jo Ann: I find that thie information of this course is a challenge to interface with some of my colleagues -- the very problem that we are dancing in today 
 10:52 jennymackness : So in some cases we need authority and control?
 10:53 jon_k : only if we need an army
 10:53 anitsirk : i agree w/ lisa and sasasi. with lurking i'm still involved even though others can't see it. when i leave i don't do anything at all.
 10:53 LisaMLane : Hobbes
 10:53 jennymackness : @jon - good one!
 10:53 ustreamer-8925 : Conceptual connections aren't the same as social connections-- not as visible. Can;t judge learning only through language, I think
 10:54 LisaMLane : @8925 but to leave it out seems to create an incomplete perspective
 10:54 jon_k : I think that one of the underlying notions of connectivism is that it is contributing to society
 10:55 ustreamer-91238 : Jo Ann: Powerlessnes or a weakening of "the process" by consensus
 10:55 LisaMLane : so what do we do with the nature of man vis a vis power?
 10:55 LisaMLane : if not contract theory, then what?
 10:55 jon_k : lurking takes from one group (our group) and may or may not give to other groups
 10:56 LisaMLane : @jon_k it isn't taking if it's freely given
 10:56 jon_k : @lisa - true the language I used isn't correct
 10:57 jon_k : but I'm balancing work and something interesting...
 10:57 LisaMLane : LOL
 10:57 LisaMLane : the desire for conformity has not changed
 10:58 LisaMLane : an appropriate day to resurrect the dead ;)
 10:58 ustreamer-91238 : JoAnn: If people give me tools, resources, and people -- can I be responsible for my interaction with other
 10:59 ustreamer-91238 : Jo Ann: Some people who like being "teachers" have the illusion of power
 10:59 jennymackness : How do power and leadership relate?
 10:59 LisaMLane : @jenny an important question
 11:00 ustreamer-8925 : ctscho: Good discussion of  networked leadership in the week's reading
 11:00 ustreamer-91238 : Jo Ann: There is room for "differnt" ways
 11:00 gsiemens : thanks all for stopping by
 11:01 gsiemens : thanks Dave and Jeff
 11:01 ustreamer-91238 : Jo Ann: yes indeed -- thanks everyone
 11:01 LisaMLane : thanks George for being up so late!
 11:01 ustreamer-8925 : Thank you.
 11:01 jon_k : thanks!
 11:01 ustreamer-70884 : thanks
 11:01 SasaSi : thanks! 
 11:01 anitsirk : thank you very much, dave, george, jeff and stephen
 11:01 LisaMLane : thanks everyone
 11:01 jpachon : thanks
 11:01 jpachon : bye all