CCK Week#9 Discussion

 12:05 LisaMLane : please please put something in the Daily!!!!!
 12:05 anitsirk : yep.
 12:05 LisaMLane : it keeps going back and forth between :83 and not
 12:05 ender921 : video frozen?
 12:05 anitsirk : video stopped.
 12:05 LisaMLane : (sound out, video frozen)
 12:05 coarsesalt : thanks folks!
 12:06 anitsirk : np
 12:06 cogdog : sorry gotta go, not good time of day here to get bandwidth; besides it is Friday beer time. Cya
 12:06 Downes : we're getting ready to go... stand by
 12:06 anitsirk : we don't hear / see you anymore. grey afternoon on ustream
 12:06 ustreamer-5332 : Sound and picture gone
 12:06 anitsirk : bye alan. i'll try to screenrecord and post as usual (not just vid but also chat)
 12:06 ustreamer-5332 : good
 12:07 LisaMLane : ustreamers: if you get an account and log in, we can see your name
 12:07 Downes : @lisa - yes I will
 12:07 anitsirk : here we are again
 12:07 LisaMLane : @Stephen thanks!
 12:07 Downes : Hiya everyoner
 12:08 joostrobben : hi everyone
 12:08 andreasauwaerte : Good evening!
 12:08 anitsirk : hi andreas
 12:08 ustreamer-17021 : hia-dk
 12:09 andreasauwaerte : Hi antisirk.  :-)
 12:09 LisaMLane : ambivalent!
 12:09 coarsesalt : http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_inzbZCY3D1w/SRDjNuB7JwI/AAAAAAAAANI/iQareg66cC...
 12:09 ustreamer-9291 : What about the changing role of the Educational Institution?
 12:10 ggatin : Interested to hear people's opinion on the concept of teacher as exemplary learner.
 12:10 Downes : - educator as modeler (rather than instructor)
 12:10 ustreamer-33714 : Jo Ann: the range of roles and how to get models for those roles for teachers is important in various contexts of teaching/learning
 12:12 Downes : - learner (educator?) as network administrator
 12:12 ustreamer-33714 : JoAnn: the meta learning on network access
 12:12 Downes : - concierge model of learning
 12:12 LisaMLane : it means you have to tip the educator
 12:12 ender921 : guide?
 12:12 ggatin : Because learning is often a sequence of error corrections, for a teacher to model learning one must give up the illusion of always being right. Tricky.
 12:12 anitsirk : @lisa: lol
 12:12 LisaMLane : but can they get me good theatre tickets?
 12:12 Downes : - educator as curator
 12:13 ustreamer-33714 : Jo Ann: how to (IIs) indentify, inspire, share
 12:13 LisaMLane : museum context is not negative; there are active museums
 12:13 ustreamer-9291 : Museum and Art GELLERIES
 12:13 andreasauwaerte : enabeler.
 12:13 gsiemens : yes
 12:14 ender921 : only if evaluation continues to be done by individuals, no?
 12:14 andreasauwaerte : person who prepares an enviroment ste students can cristallyse also with their work.
 12:14 ustreamer-9291 : Evaluation may be done by the networked community
 12:14 Downes : - educator as evaluator
 12:14 ggatin : educator as evaluator is more an administrative function rather than in support of learning
 12:15 Rodd_Lucier : co-learner; co-assessor?
 12:15 ender921 : @9291 i agree
 12:15 ustreamer-33714 : Jo Ann: fragmented -- hmm -- I think if there is integration in the teaching process, it has to be embodied in ways that are able to communicated -- how am I operating as teacher and from what perspective
 12:16 Downes : - educator as knower
 12:16 ender921 : educator as expert?
 12:16 LisaMLane : know a discipline? as in content? or process?
 12:16 ustreamer-33714 : educator as journey-traveller
 12:16 ggatin : educator as entertainer
 12:16 Downes : - educator as community leader
 12:17 LisaMLane : @33714 isn't that just educator as student?
 12:17 ender921 : @downes i agree
 12:17 coarsesalt : mmm... student
 12:17 andreasauwaerte : Whats new 4 me: Teacher could be a leraner could be a teacher. AND Learner could be a teacher bould be a Learner.
 12:17 coarsesalt : we are, so often, educator and learner at the same time
 12:17 ustreamer-33714 : educator as integrating and energing leader
 12:17 ender921 : in the context of connectivism, teacher = learner
 12:17 bee : self-direction
 12:17 anitsirk : @andreas: learning through teaching (methode lernen durch lehren)
 12:17 ustreamer-33714 : sharer
 12:18 jconnell : interesting paper with another notion in this vein, tho slightly off the wall:  http://tinyurl.com/6levvs
 12:18 andreasauwaerte : @antisirk: No teh doulbe sided medaille is important.
 12:18 LisaMLane : then what you *know* is how to be a good teacher
 12:19 ggatin : Educator as participant and contributor in the world of knowledge construction
 12:19 gsiemens : http://stomas.ning.com/
 12:19 ustreamer-33714 : Jo Ann:http://www.educause.edu/LibraryDetailPage/666?ID-PUB7101
 12:19 ustreamer-33714 : Jo Ann: title for last url educating the net generation
 12:20 ender921 : sounds like the end of absolutes... i.e. no one can really "know", they can only "be"\
 12:20 bee : http://learnergeneratedcontexts.pbwiki.com/Heutagogy
 12:21 LisaMLane : don't we have to get into what society thinks it needs?
 12:21 Downes : - educator as leading practitioner
 12:21 coarsesalt : @lisam that's what i'm wondering
 12:21 andreasauwaerte : If you want to be the one giving the spark of new educational fire - you will have to be authentic.
 12:21 ender921 : @lisa each person needs something different... that's kinda the problem..
 12:21 LisaMLane : few people visit these
 12:21 Downes : - plumber as educator
 12:21 ender921 : society doesn't really need anything
 12:21 bee : http://ultibase.rmit.edu.au/Articles/dec00/hase2.htm
 12:21 LisaMLane : @ender but it supports what it thinks it needs
 12:22 ustreamer-33714 : Jo Ann: how to know fast enough to lead well -- is about welcoming sources from learners -- including the "teacher" and working and reflecting -- sometimes with others and sometimes alone and putting it out to others
 12:22 LisaMLane : I'm thinking it needs rooms with kids kept there all day and marked with grades
 12:22 gsiemens : enculturation
 12:22 bee : different approaches in different contexts, situations and publics
 12:23 ustreamer-33714 : Jo Ann: respect for how we all learn -- kids too -- not to put them down or to discourage them
 12:23 coarsesalt : questions please?
 12:24 anitsirk : @andreas: sorry for the late reply. you are right. both sides need to be looked at.
 12:24 ggatin : Part of what it means to be human is to participate in teaching and learning as natural functions. The natural function atrophies when the function of teaching is relegated to proscribed individuals.
 12:24 ustreamer-33714 : JoAnn: knowing them meaningfully -- like my 16 year old that goes to the podcasts on physics and then connecting to physic club and talking and learning for the love of it
 12:24 LisaMLane : ? but is this type of learning what society thinks it needs?
 12:25 coarsesalt : yeah george... stop being so glib
 12:25 coarsesalt : :)
 12:25 andreasauwaerte : @LisaMLane: Request: Could it be the type of Learning your Learners could develop best on creativity and knowledge?
 12:25 anitsirk : change can seldomly brought about immediately. it will take time.
 12:25 gsiemens : @coarsesalt he was talking about you
 12:28 ender921 : society is a collective
 12:28 LDinSTL : even within education, what constitutes knowledge is HIGHLY contested
 12:28 LisaMLane : the society that makes educational systems possible
 12:28 LDinSTL : highly political
 12:28 ender921 : there is no single answer
 12:28 ggatin : @LDinSTL agree
 12:28 andreasauwaerte : @ender921: rught.
 12:28 LDinSTL : i.e. Dept. of Ed view vs NSF view of what is learning and how you measure it--in USA
 12:28 LisaMLane : @LDinSTL I don't think so either
 12:29 LisaMLane : I did that,  Dave -- in several lines above
 12:29 LDinSTL : big ideaological battle
 12:29 ustreamer-26301 : the society that sees education as a right and its needs
 12:29 andreasauwaerte : @LisaMLane: Simple answer: It Should.
 12:29 bee : the emphasis is being placed on developing people who can cope with a rapidly changing world comes from the workplace
 12:29 ustreamer-33714 : Jo Ann: mulittask if we can -- streams may come together
 12:30 bee : oops...the emphasis that is being placed
 12:30 LDinSTL : many conservatives totally reject the idea we need to adapt to changing students
 12:30 coarsesalt : @lisa sorry was doing 4 other things :)
 12:30 ggatin : need to reevaluate the notion of teacher as agent of social control
 12:30 LisaMLane : @dave, got it, just was trying to answer before we got too much further
 12:31 ustreamer-94627 : Hi
 12:31 LDinSTL : (not me--I reject their rejection--heheh)
 12:31 Rodd_Lucier : School is best in the eyes of parents if it is 'recognizable' or like the school they remember...
 12:31 LisaMLane : but it's where everyone *thinks* the education is
 12:31 andreasauwaerte : In Fact we are all society. Doesn't knwo how it is @your cuntries. But sometimes i feel a little sad about that educational politicians are just thinking about 1 or 2 years.
 12:31 ustreamer-26301 : education is craved by those who don't get it
 12:31 ustreamer-33714 : Jo Ann: not me, and I'm a parent
 12:31 ender921 : extreme thought experiment.... what if the government had everyone do a DIY site for their own job (plumber, etc.), as well as mark students trekking through their sites at will, from home... no more schools, no more teachers...?
 12:32 anitsirk : lol
 12:32 LDinSTL : workforce development as a goal vs the value of a liberal education--just one set of views that can lead to divergent beliefs on "what is education"
 12:33 anitsirk : @ender921 i think that many children will be left behind...
 12:33 ustreamer-76748 : state-civil-market: school=state, learning=civil, market=workforce edu
 12:33 ustreamer-33714 : Jo Ann: Perhaps there needs to be something to push against to find our way -- no need to throw out the things that are working -- however change is.
 12:33 anitsirk : @ender921 because not all parents support them in their learning
 12:33 coarsesalt : 'Palin on' booo....
 12:33 LDinSTL : how do we know they are "working"--what evidence do you accept--that's the whole point!
 12:33 bee : I'd say proactive students instead of reactive...people who are involved and engaged and not merely consuming
 12:34 LisaMLane : we keep asking that question in different ways, for weeks now
 12:34 gsiemens : you could Stephen, you just didn't
 12:34 ggatin : One of my favorite quotes The society that scorns excellence in plumbing because plumbing is a humble activity and tolerates shoddiness in philosophy because philosophy is an exalted activity, will have neither good plumbing nor good philosophy. Neither its pipes nor its theories will hold water."
 12:35 LDinSTL : "people" -- define :-)
 12:35 bee : there are so many different contexts...we cannot advocate one single theory or approach...we cannot have one single curriculum
 12:35 ender921 : @antisirk.. i think participation could be imposed the same as it is today: accrediation... connective learning will not fix bad parents or lazy students..
 12:35 gsiemens : look at China Stephen
 12:35 gsiemens : very traditional
 12:35 LDinSTL : @bee -- agree
 12:35 gsiemens : yes
 12:35 ustreamer-33714 : Jo Ann: The learners could tell or show us that they are working if we are open to how they tell or show us.
 12:35 LisaMLane : that demographic and interest set determines what happens
 12:35 LDinSTL : focus on "Standards" may be part of the problem
 12:35 ender921 : @antisirk do u mean the there must be a place to send the children to?
 12:36 ustreamer-61682 : Chinese education - much rote learning - I ask students
 12:36 LisaMLane : most people want their children to live better than they do
 12:36 bee : to have more possibilities of choice
 12:36 bee : and freedom
 12:36 ender921 : no
 12:36 LisaMLane : basics: wood chopping, planting, weaponry, survival
 12:36 andreasauwaerte : @LisaMLane: Thats right. But it is hard tell the parents there is more to learn than math .
 12:37 LDinSTL : "back to basics" is a conservative catch phrase in USA
 12:37 bee : I would do very poorly in survival
 12:37 ggatin : basics= civil discourse
 12:37 ustreamer-33714 : Jo Ann @Lisa -- I think the majority of parents want to have their children have a better world, but I hear from the youth that often they think that the world is in trouble and how can they deal with their parents!!!
 12:37 LisaMLane : @bee so would most of the people promoting these ideas!
 12:37 ustreamer-61682 : Stephen - who should/will determine curriculum?
 12:38 ender921 : @lisa do u think parents lack of support stems from a kind of cynicism?
 12:38 ender921 : from the parents?
 12:38 gsiemens : we should ask the children of Chinese parents what we should teach our children?
 12:38 bee : how can an organization like OECD set criteria for such diverse countries like Finland and Brazil for instance?
 12:38 ender921 : @gs yikes!
 12:38 LisaMLane : @ender no, it stems from what they think their kids will need to do well
 12:39 Rodd_Lucier : Parents would love to hear their children be excited about learning... with daycare provided ; )
 12:39 ustreamer-33714 : Jo Ann: perhaps teachers have to help organize the old information and to help track new information along with critical thinking on these areas.
 12:39 Rodd_Lucier : they need not be even interested in the underlying theories
 12:39 LisaMLane : @Rodd interesting idea!
 12:39 andreasauwaerte : @gsiemens: Chinese parents?
 12:39 LisaMLane : let's get them excited and give them all As and keep them in a safe place during working hours
 12:39 ggatin : I suspect that Chinese parents would want the same for its children as I want for my children. Don't teach them stuff, teach them how to learn.
 12:40 andreasauwaerte : Aren't there some more cultural points ?
 12:40 LisaMLane : @ggatin I disagree - I think only people who possess metacognition want it for others
 12:40 ustreamer-61682 : But who determines the options?
 12:40 bee : Stephen and George, what is your opinion of the Bologna Process?
 12:40 coarsesalt : @ggatin no. probably not. teach them what they need to get into the best university
 12:40 ustreamer-33714 : Jo Ann:@Rodd-- yes the collective could better support the parents with systems that help parents too.
 12:40 Rodd_Lucier : Choice... Interesting idea, let kids choose their teacher...
 12:41 ggatin : @Lisa if they have been conditioned to believe that way
 12:41 andreasauwaerte : @ggatin: Shouldn't we difference between the content and what maybe chinese parents really want?
 12:41 LisaMLane : @dave right, with the outcome high social status and money
 12:41 ender921 : @33714 the connective!
 12:41 LisaMLane : educated Chinese parents? peasants? corporate workers in Shanghai?
 12:42 ender921 : teachers will teach learning (i.e. what Rodd said)
 12:42 ustreamer-61682 : Habitus - Bourdieu tells us that disadvantage is leanred throughgenerations - how to challenge that?
 12:42 coarsesalt : @lisaM my experience... all of them
 12:42 LDinSTL : "All you need is love...duh duh duh duh duh..." heheh
 12:42 LDinSTL : playing in my head
 12:42 LisaMLane : @dave me too, want to change it through subversive application of good idea
 12:42 ustreamer-33714 : Jo Ann: then healthy empowerment as learners can also be through generations -- hopeful
 12:42 coarsesalt : :)
 12:43 LisaMLane : objectionable becomes what most people agree on
 12:43 ggatin : who decides really objectionable stuff
 12:44 LDinSTL : the concept of stating your "frame" in papers in educational research was eye-opening to me
 12:44 LisaMLane : why would there be a difference in having such a group decide what's objectionable and having them decide what students should learn?
 12:44 ustreamer-33714 : Jo Ann: When my son was hosted by a Chinese family -- at the J.H. Math Olymics -- the parents had to apply to have him and take 6 months of courses in order to have him.
 12:44 ustreamer-61682 : agree Lisa
 12:44 bee : having proved you jumped the hoops successfully
 12:45 LDinSTL : the idea that we will NOT agree and you need to state your frame/assumptions before disscussing your work/conclusions
 12:45 LisaMLane : @LDinSTL where can I read more on the "frame" idea
 12:45 bee : not that you have learnt
 12:45 ustreamer-49649 : ctscho: Maybe we need a "travelocity" site for education choices with a recommender system
 12:45 andreasauwaerte : Only step by step impo
 12:45 Rodd_Lucier : Parents seem more interested in playground equipment, hot lunch programs, and field trips than curriculum expectations... I really think change can happen with what we do, and teachers are the significant barrier...
 12:45 andreasauwaerte : hi ctscho!
 12:45 bee : it's the eternal debate between quantity and quality
 12:46 ender921 : @rodd i agree, well said
 12:46 LDinSTL : having been trained in chemistry and chemed, the idea of conditional knowledge was NEVER introduced to us
 12:46 ustreamer-49649 : ctscho @andreas Hallo
 12:46 LisaMLane : THAT''S society
 12:46 ggatin : educators as replicators
 12:46 Rodd_Lucier : the idea of being a professional who is interested and engaged in learning... that is a large target to try to hit..
 12:46 LDinSTL : I had to dig into philosophy to find out why our belief in constructivism even evolved
 12:46 ender921 : ideas you were discussing earlier implied the disappearance of fixed curriculum
 12:47 andreasauwaerte : @ender921! Yea! Thats right
 12:47 Downes : I agree - fixed curriculum will disappear
 12:47 bee : this is focused action...not necessarily learning
 12:47 ustreamer-33714 : Jo Ann: Empower the educators from within this connected network
 12:47 LisaMLane : yes, and that's what we want to do
 12:47 andreasauwaerte : Thinking all will go away from knowledge to competences that will give access to knowledge.
 12:47 ender921 : if fixed curriculum disappears, don't schools go away?
 12:47 LDinSTL : if you go to the AERA (American Educational Research Association) meeting you find a whole range of frameworks/assumptions about what education is,  a ton of ideological battles--fascinating
 12:47 Rodd_Lucier : Role of education needs to be seen for all of society, not just students and/or teachers...
 12:48 anitsirk : would that go into the direction of homeschooling where the parents decide what they want to teac
 12:48 ggatin : The prospect of the existing regime p**ing away 700B may have motivated a renewed interest in democracy
 12:48 LDinSTL : I had to let go of my idea that there is one right solution--end of story--and that was uncomfortable
 12:48 ustreamer-61682 : Summerhill was aschool without fixed curriculum
 12:49 LisaMLane : thanks for the reality dose
 12:49 ender921 : imo, "society" is a poor term in this context, because it is represented by "a group of government officials"
 12:49 andreasauwaerte : @ender921 Why they should? Schools - or better the things happen in schools can be part on the personal developping and tutoring progress.
 12:49 LDinSTL : it all comes from our underlying assumptions about how the world works, what we believe education is for,  what should be learned,  and how we learn
 12:49 ustreamer-33714 : Jo Ann: Distributed cost and benefits
 12:49 LisaMLane : society is the funder so long as anyone is in a classroom instead of out working
 12:50 ustreamer-33714 : Jo Ann: The people spent it (most were 6$)
 12:50 ustreamer-61682 : parents already provide unpaid education
 12:50 LisaMLane : having children in class instead of helping their family IS a cost
 12:50 ender921 : about 50% came from online
 12:50 LDinSTL : my frustration is that we don't start by examining our beliefs--our own personal "theory of learning" and then we end up talking past each other
 12:50 LisaMLane : yes, the entire Democratic Party
 12:50 Rodd_Lucier : Wonder how much funding he'd recieve in light of today's financial realities...
 12:50 ender921 : not sure how much were small
 12:50 gsiemens : can you tell me?
 12:50 ustreamer-33714 : Jo Ann: @Lisa great point
 12:51 ender921 : @andreas because then schools would just be babysitters
 12:51 Rodd_Lucier : I still need a few more weeks to wrap my head around it ; )
 12:51 andreasauwaerte : @enders921: No!!!!!!!!!
 12:51 LisaMLane : if parents work in an environment where kids cannot help, they need schools to babysit
 12:52 Rodd_Lucier : 7%?  How will you measure that?
 12:52 LisaMLane : radical, Dave, radical
 12:52 andreasauwaerte : @ender921: Scools have the chance to give the arrangement to make the students world accessible to get them on theyr own legs
 12:52 ustreamer-33714 : Jo Ann: Today feels like the theory of Learning in connectivism is working -- and it is energizing and encouraging.
 12:52 coarsesalt : @rodd EXACTLY 7%
 12:52 ender921 : @andreas but they can get to it themselves!
 12:52 LDinSTL : I read Summerhill back when it first came out--can you tell? heheh
 12:52 andreasauwaerte : Deepest words of education: Emanzipation means reach somebody out from your own hand to the own step!
 12:53 Rodd_Lucier : @coarsesalt I guess the question is what are we measuring... the old paradigm of measuring learning? or measuring engagment!
 12:53 andreasauwaerte : @ender921: Think what you could halep your students to get the best out of theyr possibilities.
 12:53 ustreamer-61682 : Nancy White was good at listening
 12:53 Rodd_Lucier : standardized tests vs qualitative data?
 12:54 ustreamer-33714 : Jo Ann: better contacts means enabling meaningful exchanges that are processed by people -- sounds like learning
 12:54 coarsesalt : @rodd hence the question... i just ask irritating questions in an attempt to try and get S and G to talk about things differently than they have elsewhere... sometimes it works... sometimes i sound silly (sometimes both)
 12:54 LisaMLane : @Rodd engagement leads to certain types of learning, can leave other types behind
 12:54 ustreamer-49649 : ctscho: @andreas and @ender Not so much a classroom issue as the availablity of other adults and experts for students/kids
 12:54 coarsesalt : or niether
 12:54 Rodd_Lucier : You're a great foil @coarsesalt
 12:54 ustreamer-61682 : In Iceland school children work on land in summer
 12:54 ggatin : get people use to the idea that you don't have to be in a "classroom" to be learning
 12:54 Rodd_Lucier : agreed @LisaMLane
 12:55 andreasauwaerte : @ender921: The most frustrationg moment is: if they down't know what is inside themselve where should they start digging into theyr knowledge.
 12:55 Rodd_Lucier : @ggatin and that the classroom has flexible walls...
 12:55 LisaMLane : objections to homeschooling set up the parameters of the argument
 12:55 ustreamer-61682 : Why not recognise the good that is already done in classrooms? and build on that
 12:56 LisaMLane : @61682 yes
 12:56 andreasauwaerte : Thinking it is important to divide between school as institution and ONE place of learning.
 12:56 ustreamer-33714 : Jo Ann: Bring the Ustreams and Youtubes into collective libraries -- to distribute more opportunity within schools -- and outside schools
 12:56 andreasauwaerte : @61682 Thats a very important point.
 12:57 LDinSTL : @LisaMLane -- put this into google and take your choice ;-)  -- "frame" education learning theory --
 12:57 LisaMLane : I've never known a kindergarten teaching unwilling to experiment
 12:57 vances : SOME of us are experimenting
 12:57 ggatin : @61682 recognized but locus of control must shift
 12:57 Rodd_Lucier : The idea that self-selected learning topic is valuable can be realized by having educators pursue areas of personal interest...
 12:57 LisaMLane : failure is greatly undervalued in our society
 12:57 Downes : also - open the classroom to the community
 12:57 Rodd_Lucier : rather than one-size fits all PD
 12:57 ustreamer-33714 : JoAnn: I like what is happening in some areas -- within schools -- but the flexibility and accessibility and individuality mixed with networked students -- those qualities can be promoted more
 12:58 LisaMLane : @Rodd I've found it amazingly hard to get faculty to do this
 12:58 ustreamer-61682 : @Lisa it's Frances
 12:58 Rodd_Lucier : I have some ideas about this @Lisa
 12:58 Rodd_Lucier : More writing to follow...
 12:58 LisaMLane : @61682 hi Frances!
 12:58 LisaMLane : @Rodd I'm going to try a workshop called Serious Play, to get them online
 12:59 andreasauwaerte : @61682 Hi Frances.
 12:59 bee : the world is not flat
 12:59 LisaMLane : @Rodd blog post? email? I'd love to hear your ideas
 12:59 ustreamer-61682 : hi andreas, lisa and all
 12:59 ustreamer-33714 : Jo Ann: Motivational e-leaders might help -- in many countries
 12:59 Rodd_Lucier : @Lisa that sounds catchy!
 12:59 andreasauwaerte : 400 years ago people saying the world isn't flat have been burned.
 12:59 Rodd_Lucier : More blogging...
 12:59 ender921 : @andreas if u mean, u present all the choices without fixed curriculum/evaluation (as implied by others), then all student work is optional anyway, so the institutional school becomes untenable (they wouldn't go anyway)
 12:59 Rodd_Lucier : in more than 140 characters
 12:59 LisaMLane : @andreas what? who thought the world was flat?
 01:00 ustreamer-61682 : @Lisa we (me Helen Keegan and Josie Frser have done slam workdshops - will send url
 01:00 LisaMLane : @Rodd thanks, that would be cool
 01:00 LisaMLane : @Frances -- sounds good!
 01:00 ustreamer-33714 : Jo Ann: Caring, distributing, critically evaluation, changing, moving on
 01:00 ender921 : @andreas the obligation to teach falls back to the parents, quite literrally, becuase students won't have trust in teachers' knowledge
 01:00 LisaMLane : but surely that's just CONTENT? lol ;-)
 01:00 andreasauwaerte : @ender921: Thanx ythink you got the point. But i think we schould end the thinking you can learn all in advance. Thats what school must learn and don't lerarn in germany now.
 01:01 bee : but the teacher should know how to connect to experts
 01:01 vances : hopefully we've left that level of gov't behind
 01:01 ustreamer-49649 : ctscho @Dave and we're so embarassed
 01:01 LisaMLane : @ Dave you are way too rational
 01:01 bee : and this is where all the media and networks can help
 01:01 Rodd_Lucier : We don't all have taps running on full to fill those empty vessels...
 01:01 ender921 : @SD do u think no fixed curriculum = no institutionalized schools (i.e. a building)
 01:02 ustreamer-33714 : Jo Ann: Curriculum models -- limited -- plus is that learning necessarily
 01:02 andreasauwaerte : @ender921: ??? Why? To be a teacher has to be more than delivering content!
 01:02 coarsesalt : i worry about all those educators who became educators to get 3 months vacation
 01:02 ustreamer-61682 : @Lisa tweeted those urls
 01:02 LisaMLane : @Dave don't make me cry
 01:02 gsiemens : @coarsesalt - how harsh
 01:02 Rodd_Lucier : @coarsesalt I worry about educators who loved school just the way it was when they went through
 01:02 LisaMLane : @Frances thx!
 01:02 andreasauwaerte : And you will have to be a professional as an teacher. But in the knowledge that you won't be a ble to know all your students will have the need to know in future.
 01:02 ustreamer-33714 : Jo Ann: yes, there is a lot of change -- and are we change agents?
 01:02 ggatin : @coursesalt or those who were rejected by the police academy
 01:02 anitsirk : and dave's example also shows that experts did not help in the case of palin either
 01:03 ender921 : @andreas ok.. what's more? :)
 01:03 coarsesalt : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blind_Men_and_an_Elephant
 01:03 LDinSTL : exactly :-)
 01:03 LisaMLane : sometimes you must *make* them experiment
 01:03 Rodd_Lucier : Well said @andrea!
 01:04 ender921 : but with no fixed curriculum, what is a class??
 01:04 coarsesalt : @gsiemens... but i think it's a critical issue for the connectivist model
 01:04 Rodd_Lucier : a class is simply a group...
 01:04 ender921 : "ok students... learn!
 01:04 LDinSTL : Apologies if you already have seen TIP - http://tip.psychology.org/ - and also apologies for the "drive-by" nature of my participation in CCK08--I follow so many communities (i.e. Stephen/George for years)
 01:04 ustreamer-61682 : Oh NO - not groups again!
 01:05 andreasauwaerte : @ender921: what is has been before. a horde of students!
 01:05 ggatin : Thanks everybody!
 01:05 vances : we get a lot done in 9 months
 01:05 LisaMLane : is it June yet? :-)
 01:05 coarsesalt : lol
 01:05 ustreamer-61682 : don't generalise Dave!
 01:05 LisaMLane : I liked my educational experience; that doesn't mean it's right for everyone
 01:05 coarsesalt : it's not a generalization... there are teachers like this
 01:05 ender921 : @andreas yes, but you have no fixed way to measure them and you know it!! so why should they trust you or learn from you??
 01:05 coarsesalt : not a majority. but they exist.
 01:05 Rodd_Lucier : Great discussion today...
 01:06 ustreamer-61682 : but not all
 01:06 coarsesalt : no. i'm a teacher. i hated school. and i don't get the vacation
 01:06 LDinSTL : Palin grrrrrrrr
 01:06 coarsesalt : palin palin plain
 01:06 coarsesalt : palin
 01:06 ustreamer-33714 : Jo Ann: Perhaps if they worked effectively and with support -- the "three month" teachers -- won't be so burned out by the 9 months. Integrated Professional Development on e-learning and e-teaching.
 01:06 LDinSTL : Plain
 01:06 LisaMLane : exactly, there is a social expectation of what folks should know
 01:07 ender921 : flattening of roles...
 01:07 vances : geography USED to be
 01:07 LDinSTL : ok--driving off--come to twitter: ldinstl_chimera if you want -- bye all!
 01:07 ustreamer-33714 : Jo Ann: are we learning smart?
 01:07 andreasauwaerte : @ender921: disagreee. Lets change the point of view. Think you cant change from know to to morrow. my way would be instead of replacing take a look how we quickly could enrich and then you are open to my very important view: Finding ways besie your traditional assesments to value the students work.
 01:07 ender921 : don't go north!
 01:08 LisaMLane : @andrea enrich, good word
 01:08 ustreamer-33714 : Jo Ann: Bye now @LDinSTL
 01:08 LisaMLane : they said that about Japan
 01:08 LisaMLane : c. 1975
 01:08 anitsirk : the geography issue is age old. when i was an exchange student at us high school, i was asked some pretty strange questions by a 10th grader. sad to see that a politician wanting to be involved in international affairs doesn't know better.
 01:08 ustreamer-33714 : Jo Ann: Enrich-- is important -- thanks
 01:08 bee : all depends on the age of the learners
 01:09 gsiemens : thanks all!
 01:09 LisaMLane : thanks, Dave!
 01:09 gsiemens : Dave, Jeff - appreciate your moderation/help
 01:09 ender921 : @andreas.. i've thought about that a great deal.. it is a very tricky problem.. there are solutions that do not require an individual as evaluator
 01:09 Downes : Thanks everyone
 01:09 ustreamer-33714 : Jo Ann: Thanks everyone -- both voice and text
 01:09 ustreamer-61682 : Why not just have a chat?
 01:09 LisaMLane : just imagine if we were all on microphone! video!
 01:09 anitsirk : thanks to all of you.
 01:09 ustreamer-41546 : Tanks for your
 01:09 ender921 : thx as always guys
 01:09 bee : Thank you George, Stephen, jeff and Dave
 01:09 andreasauwaerte : You are great! Thanx!
 01:10 ustreamer-33714 : JoAnn: Cheers
 01:10 Rodd_Lucier : Lots of engaging conversation
 01:10 suewolff : very stimulating, thanks!
 01:10 vances : thanks Jeff thanks Dave
 01:10 ender921 : week 9 already *sigh* i'm so lazy
 01:10 LisaMLane : @Rodd, I'll be getting to your blog later on -- stuff to read and respond -- bye
 01:10 LDinSTL : So should I come back? I feel like I was interrupting rather than contributing.
 01:10 andreasauwaerte : @ender921: Thats right and i know educators who could'nt replaced remotly! And everybody would miss them!
 01:10 anitsirk : @lisa. the network would break down with more talkers. ;-)
 01:11 LDinSTL : No comment = don't come back lol
 01:11 andreasauwaerte : @bye LD
 01:11 anitsirk : have a nice evening. i'm off to posting the recording. need my bandwidth for that.
 01:12 ender921 : @andreas i have no problem with inspirational teachers, i just think that keeping them paid in a building is economically untenable given diversification of student needs
 01:13 ender921 : @andreas i think people like that would just be individual teacher-professionals rather than part of an instituion
 01:13 andreasauwaerte : @ender921: getting allergic by economics and education #sorry.
 01:13 ender921 : @andreas i just like thinking about the future, so i try an see all the bits :)
 01:13 ustreamer-61682 : @ender921 - attractive job for paedophiles
 01:14 andreasauwaerte : @ender921: But n teaching organisations you could also create so many networking effects on the short ways which don't appear in the statistics!
 01:15 andreasauwaerte : @ender and i don't know where are you from but in germany there are a lot of things differing and differing.
 01:15 ustreamer-61682 : @andreas - already there - classes working across borders
 01:15 ender921 : @61682 digital justice is a whole other problem.. mebbe u're a pedophile.. ;)
 01:15 ustreamer-61682 : exactly!
 01:15 andreasauwaerte : @61682 durff?
 01:16 ustreamer-61682 : Frances Bell
 01:16 andreasauwaerte : Sorry! Classes working across borders is the nicest word ive heard!
 01:16 ustreamer-61682 : thx andreas
 01:17 andreasauwaerte : A colleque of us is looking for a blog partner for theyr 7Th grader. Just for commenting! I skyped my fingers wound.
 01:17 andreasauwaerte : No one out there!
 01:18 ustreamer-61682 : My contacts are too old andreas
 01:18 ender921 : @andreas if u acknowledge the death of national geography, then why not local geography? a natual extention of "classes-across-borders" is "classes-across-homes"
 01:18 andreasauwaerte : @ender921: We had a talk from one apple person talking about podcasting.
 01:19 ustreamer-61682 : Rob Kitchin wrote great book on geog of Cyberspace - in 1998!
 01:19 andreasauwaerte : @ender921 and he described how to shift thoughts from institutions to all directions could go.
 01:20 andreasauwaerte : @ender921 He forgot one thing: You could reach the childrens parents!
 01:20 ustreamer-61682 : globalisation creates borders within cities, globally connected gated communities, unconnected poor outside the gates
 01:20 ender921 : @andreas right, exactly.. so we're back to the evaluation/accrediation problem.. and that, of course, leads to the power problem
 01:20 andreasauwaerte : in my former institution we had a project aiming exactly what you are telling about: I gave the title: "Bridging the world to the classroom"
 01:21 ender921 : @61682 that is going to change.. info technologies are moving into poorer and poorer nations, and growing faster there than anywhere else
 01:21 andreasauwaerte : @ender921: Waht do you meant by the course to the power problem?
 01:22 ustreamer-61682 : and inequity will persist
 01:22 ender921 : @andreas teacher = evaluator = expert = power
 01:22 andreasauwaerte : K - and teacher is the one who just can act and react in the borders of his rules he was given!
 01:23 ender921 : @61682 i think/hope that inequity of _opportunity_ will begin to level off...
 01:23 andreasauwaerte : but if he is allowed he is also enabled to learn. from the students! But keep the power.
 01:24 andreasauwaerte : Im so a lucky man that i am enabled to teach on my way podcasting to future teachers! ;-)
 01:24 ustreamer-61682 : @ender Why?
 01:25 ustreamer-61682 : Supper time in UK - off to have Thai curry and South African wine mmmmmm!
 01:26 ustreamer-61682 : bye!
 01:26 ender921 : @61682 becuase as ICT's (infotech) spread into poorer and poorer nations, they will have access to effectively all human knowledge
 01:26 andreasauwaerte : bye! Until next time and you must tell me about your concerns about connectivism! ;-)
 01:26 ender921 : the only thing they need to make money
 01:26 ender921 : bye guys, thx for the chats
 01:27 andreasauwaerte : three two one gone!!